Rhye's and Fall of Asia - Version 1.1

Civciv5 · Apr 9, 2012

As Qin I am able to build an embassy of my own civilization.
Is this normal?

civ-addicted · Apr 9, 2012

Civciv5 said:
Is this supposed to be?
The Han are just sitting there doing nothing.
While I wait until they collapse and Wu Zetian has already died and the Han are still in power.
The 500 AD start doesn't work for me,it just stops at turn 23 and remains there.

I tried to attacked their capital but failed,most of my units were destroyed and so ends my story.
I am now totally demotivated to start over again.

I thought it was over but the Han collapsed finaly in 908,two years after the TANG collapsed!
We have reached the peak of foolishness!

I'm not going to respond to anything that sounds like i get yelled at. If you want a proper responce, by the love of god write it like a civilized human being.
And using font size 7 doesn't make your point any more valid.

Tigranes · Apr 9, 2012

civ-addicted said:
Though i still think that playing Gupta feels a little strange, maybe they can be changed slightly.

Guptas were one of the best things that put a little more balance between the attention this mod gives to India and attention in gives to China. I certainly hope they will not be reduced to the status of unplayable civ :please:

I still feel that mod has a certain bias toward China and Buddhism when compared to India and Hinduism. Vedas are one of the oldest religious texts created by humans, Mahabharata is the single longest work of epic literature, Ramayana influenced lots of cultures in Asia, Rigvedic Sanskrit is one of the oldest attestations of any Indo-Iranian language -- but the mod does not reflect the importance early Hinduism. No civ has a UHV to found Hinduism (Aryans are depicted as barbarians), yet alone to create those wonders.

Based on this quote ...

The religion of Hinduism probably has its roots in the Indus Valley civilisation (Harappa).

... I suggest to tweak Harappa so that we could reflect the importance of pre-Mauryan India. Currently one can win as Harappa with 2 cities only -- Aryan invasion is one of the most brutal early barbaric activity in the mod and discourages multiple cities if you care about the 3rd UHV (no cities lost until 10 AD). But suppose we replace Great Granary with Vedas, for example. Vedas would require Literature and Hinduism Holy City. Just like Judaism in RFC Hinduism could spawn in Varanasi if human player would not found it first.

This way Harappa can have both pre-Vedic goals (Great Bath and Great Harbor) and also Hindu goal (Vedas). And finally one could increase the chance of AI Harappa to respawn as a Hindu Rajanate few turns after barbarian Aryans conquer it.

civ-addicted · Apr 9, 2012

Tigranes said:
Guptas were one of the best things that put a little more balance between the attention this mod gives to India and attention in gives to China. I certainly hope they will not be reduced to the status of unplayable civ

I still feel that mod has a certain bias toward China and Buddhism when compared to India and Hinduism. Vedas are one of the oldest religious texts created by humans, Mahabharata is the single longest work of epic literature, Ramayana influenced lots of cultures in Asia, Rigvedic Sanskrit is one of the oldest attestations of any Indo-Iranian language -- but the mod does not reflect the importance early Hinduism. No civ has a UHV to found Hinduism (Aryans are depicted as barbarians), yet alone to create those wonders.

Based on this quote ...

... I suggest to tweak Harappa so that we could reflect the importance of pre-Mauryan India. Currently one can win as Harappa with 2 cities only -- Aryan invasion is one of the most brutal early barbaric activity in the mod and discourages multiple cities if you care about the 3rd UHV (no cities lost until 10 AD). But suppose we replace Great Granary with Vedas, for example. Vedas would require Literature and Hinduism Holy City. Just like Judaism in RFC Hinduism could spawn in Varanasi if human player would not found it first.

This way Harappa can have both pre-Vedic goals (Great Bath and Great Harbor) and also Hindu goal (Vedas). And finally one could increase the chance of AI Harappa to respawn as a Hindu Rajanate few turns after barbarian Aryans conquer it.

I can assure you that i don't intend to make them unplayable in general :pat:

Now that they are added, i don't want to miss them. I just think they could be much more fun.
Harappa isn't perfect either, because one could make much more out of them, but they feel rounded up in a strange way.

But i think i'll give it a try. Instead of the lose-no-city part (which, after all, with that few cities is a "survive until 10AD"), we could make a "X million population by Y AD" goal. We can both try some games and see what we can achieve. We can decide whether the game gets better this way afterwards.

The religion of Hinduism probably has its roots in the Indus Valley civilisation (Harappa).

That 'propably' is the flaw; There are so many buts and maybes around the Harappans that i don't want to make a UHV goal for them which would drag them in any direction, but rather stick to what we are certain about, just like the wonders. As for Hinduism, i associate that religion with the Aryan Hindi population, and regarding their Panthenon of Gods, it's not that far from any other Indo-European cult, meaning the largest portion has Aryan roots most likely. It's natural that conquerers bringing culture adapt some local traditions (for example various substrates in languages), but it's rather unusual that conquerers assimilate into a culture they just overran.
If you look into the organization of Indus cities, it's generally accepted that there were only little difference between classes (a socialist system that actually worked

), so it makes much more sense to think that the conquerers brought the Caste System to rule/subjugate the people they just conquered. I read, which i find really interesting, that there are almost only White Brahmans, while all Shudras are Black.

This is like(as srpt had it once

) asking the Sassanids to discover Islam or something along those lines; a bit too alt-history, if you know what i mean.

River guard · Apr 10, 2012

reading comments on chinese baidu forum was rather entertaining

-about the city ruin instead of adding realism chinese member seeing it as horror situation
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/1504436113
one member said from his play as Han faction there were 12 ruins by end of the turn - he called it "unlimited horror"/无限恐怖, tbh I also played as Han once and I never see much ruin at all(while I have seen many city ruin as ming faction on mountain top like mentioned earlier), was it random?

-about the praise and complain about the mod
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/1501546237
beside some text/translation bugs which also happen in english version(name doesnt show up correctly, currently maybe instead of middle country of Zhou/Qin/Han/Tang/Song/Ming should be using Zhou/Qin/Han/Tang/Song/Ming dynasty, and instead of Zhou/Qin/Han/Tang/Song/Ming dynasty simply using Zhou/Qin/Han/Tang/Song/Ming State or Kingdom as before claiming mandante of heaven)
Also they were complaining about the spawn of new dynasty while the old dynasty was doing well at the hand of human players, for example when Qin dynasty got above certain stability level Han faction shouldnt spawn at all, or if Tang faction manage to hold itself Song dynasty wont come into being to begin with - I believe currently the problem is already partly fixed with the evaluation/comparing the chinese factions when new and old dynasties exist at the same time, as when I played well as Han faction when Tang spawned, although I got some problem and stability hit after a few round when I was able to hold my position the new Tang faction just ceased to be (and their cities have automatically switched to my side)

-they complain the leader of Han faction being Deng Sui

http://tieba.baidu.com/p/1502962607
Frankly I also share their frustration as there were tons of much better candidate/emperors but of course we all understand the difficulties of finding suitable leaderhead.

Personally I also got many imaginations/wishes which might be rather difficult to realize in this mod;
-I wish there could be more turns by adaption/including epic+marathon speed.
-I wish the rise and fall of chinese dynasties were also influenced/followed by natural disasters events.
-I wish the Hun(pre mongol) and Khitan(pre jurchen) civilizaions were more represented as they did huge impact on chinese history, though it would be sufficient to make them unplayable factions or even independent cities as compromise.
-I wish cities in China were better represented with more early spawn of babarian/independent cities, in many cases Chinese factions cant build enough cities in time which shouldnt be the case. Also I got a small wish about Changan respecting to its position as Chinas heart and one of world largest/richest cities maybe its better to give the city even more ressources for production or growth or trade for early periode(zhou-tang era), though those ressources should disappear by the time of ca 900ad when tang dynasty went into decline, barbarian caused destruction and nature disasters including further desertification causing the city to finally decline.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang'an
-Last but not least, I wish the pigs in RFCA arent black coloured...

Tigranes · Apr 10, 2012

civ-addicted said:
This is like(as srpt had it once) asking the Sassanids to discover Islam or something along those lines; a bit too alt-history, if you know what i mean.

I really don't intend to start a long historical debate

, but there are many instances in history when victors were gradually drifted towards the ways of their defeated subjects, think of Mongols of Ilkhanate or Normans of Wilhelm the Conqueror. Hinduism was much more complex than any of the indo-european cult of that time, and most likely is a synthesis -- 80% Aryan and 20% native Indian. As for the skin color you have a point there, but for example Vyasa, author of the Mahabharata and scribe of both the Vedas, and the supplementary texts such as the Puranas, was was dark-complexioned. But that was not exactly my point.

My point is very simple: Asian mod cannot ignore Great Sanskrit Texts. At least one single reference must be there, wouldn't you agree? City of Bam is not even on the map, but we have a Wonder for it. How can you avoid mentioning Vedas or Mahabharata? About 1.8 million words in total, the Mahabharata is roughly ten times the length of the Iliad and Odyssey combined, the importance of the Mahabharata to world civilization can be compared to that of the Bible, the works of Shakespeare, the works of Homer, Greek drama, or the Qur'an. Since there is no Aryan civ in the mod, or anything before Mauryas I just suggested to utilize Harappa, instead of asking for a new civ

. Human player founds Hinduism anyway, when you finally convert they are renamed Rajastan of ... something. Human player wins the game as a Hindu state anyway. Harappa existed during 3300–1300 BC, naturally if they survive until 10 AD ("wanted but never were able to" goal) they would be "Hinduanized" after many contacts with Aryans :assimilate:

. So there is no stretch to replace one of the Bronze age Wonders with the Hindu wonder. Again, please get my point and don't feel like I am pushing for this

-- just explaining myself.

While I am in this casual historical mood let me talk about MUCH MORE important issue. I know, we were here before :lol:

, but I came with a new ammunition :mischief:

. Ask any sober or moderately tipsy person on this forums

-- which Asian civ is assosiated with :culture:

? The answers will vary, but Ghaznavids will not make to the top of the list, if they make it there at all, that is. Now ask any unbiased wikipedia contributor -- what is the LEGACY of Ghaznavids in the grand scheme of History:

The Ghaznavid empire grew to cover much of present-day Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and northwest India, and the Ghaznavids are generally credited with spreading Islam into the Indian subcontinent. In addition to the wealth accumulated through raiding Indian cities, and exacting tribute from Indian Rajas the Ghaznavids also benefited from their position as an intermediary along the trade routes between China and the Mediterranean.

3 Cultural UHVs for the first Muslim civ appearing in the mod? Cultural UP? Cultural/GP UB? I mean, ok, there was alot of Persian culture in Gazvanid empire, but 5 cultural references about the civ whos legacy was (see quote): 1. Big Empire 2. Islam in India. 3. Wealth through loot. Don't you feel it is a little overkill?

The Shahnameh was originally composed by Ferdowsi for the princes of the Samanid dynasty, who were responsible for a revival of Persian cultural traditions after the Arab invasion of the seventh century. Yes, Ferdowsi continued work on the poem after the Samanids were conquered by the Ghaznavids. However the new ruler Mahmud of Ghazni, a Turk, may have lacked the interest in Ferdowsi's work shown by the Samanids, resulting in him losing favor with the royal court. In later passages of his poem, Ferdowsi complains about poverty and the ravages of old age.

I hope you see what I mean, when I humbly ask to rethink Ghazvanids :cool:

Please. 1 reference to culture is more than enough. I propose very cool UP -- 50% of the culture of the conquered non-Islamic cities converts to gold when you raze it. Call it power of Jihad. UHV 1 can stay for culture, UHV 2 about gold, UHV 3 about spreading Islam in India (to balance razing). I assure you this will be more fun gamewise and much much much more historically accurate.

In modern Pakistan he is hailed as a conquering hero who established the standard of Islam upon heathen land, while in India he is a raiding iconoclastic invader, bent upon the loot and plunder of a peaceful Hindu population. In India, Mahmud is therefore seen as a ruthless invader who plundered the temples of India and caused long lasting damage. His attacks on Mathura and Somnath are seen as decisive events in the history of North India and a sign of its subjugation to Islamic invasions. The fact that Mahmud never tried consolidating his conquests choosing instead to target a different region and different temples on each of his invasions is seen as evidence that he was interested in loot.

Leoreth · Apr 10, 2012

I very much second everything Tigranes said about the Ghaznavids.

artyom · Apr 12, 2012

this last version of the mod is very balanced. ive played rhyes and fall of europe and the muslim one extensively. and I have to admit, this one seems to be one of the more fun ones. and is arguably more stable and balanced than the europe one. this mod should be like posted on the front page.
a few things:
-i agree with above posts on religion: buddhism is overpowered
-no spawn maps? i like knowing where I can and cant build cities so later i dont rage quit when a civ spawns and takes a few of my cities
-ming dont spawn
-barbarians are too annoying in many parts of the map, and the great wall is the best wonder atm
-AI should be prone to expand more
-mongols AI really stinks in the last version.
-AI falls to barbarians soo easy(i know its probably intended, but its bad for playability). maybe AI units could get a bigger bonus vs barbs?
-would be awesome to have like a 600 AD start map
-korean unique victory conditions too easy and early achievable. Japanese is also very easy "theoretically" because its easy to get 65000 espionage but for some reason cant seem to get that 90% of city thing. please change it. not only is the city vision mission annoying to accomlish, its also hard to understand where exactly east asia ends and whether barb cities count.
-siam should start stronger with more units
-civilizations like harappa and greco indus need to have a chance to survive the barb attacks and not fall into instability (for the AI)
-Delhi, greeks, koreans, japs, khmer could use more difficult historical goals, perhaps those that are like hard to achieve, but impossible to fail: like spread islam to 40% for delhi, control 30% of territory for greeks, settle 15 great scientists in korean capital along with the tech discoveries, etc.
-more information on stability and about the exact requirements for some historical victory conditions which are duel to interpretation (where is hangzhou, wheres bukhara, what does it mean to have vision of cities, etc)
-civics: the best civic setup for any civilization is basically the same: any gov civic (they dont really matter), NOBILITY, CASTE SYSTEM, any economy civic, any religion civic, and expansion civi is best kept at the very first subjugation because the others are not worth their upkeep price. I'd like to see that all civics become playable and get a niche of their own, because right now the only civics (for most nations) that are cool is Nobility and caste system and ofcourse later on bourgeous if you play china and have developed a good infrastructure/buildings. I think a complete overhaul is needed for the civic system

thank you for the map, i really enjoy it and played well over 100 hours of it.

Tigranes · Apr 12, 2012

artyom said:
-no spawn maps?

Yes, there are maps. Please look up the first page of this thread. They need to be updated, though, Turks flipping Almaty, for example, but their map does not reflect it.

-Delhi, greeks, koreans, japs, khmer could use more difficult historical goals, perhaps those that are like hard to achieve, but impossible to fail: like spread islam to 40% for delhi, control 30% of territory for greeks eek, settle 15 great scientists in korean capital along with the tech discoveries, etc.

You must be kidding, right? 15% is already very hard goal with the current stability hits for Indo-Greeks after 500-600 AD. I was running -65 stability when I finally got that 15% -- one needs Bactria, Persia, Northern and Central India for that. Isn't it enough?

P.S. By the way I never understood why Alexandria on the Caucasus (modern Bagram, famous for US airfield, 60 km north from Kabul) is not the capital for Indo-Greeks. Why Alexandria Arachosia (modern Kandahar) :dunno:

?

artyom · Apr 13, 2012

with the last version, greeks are pretty simple even on emperor. just make sure u build the great wall. didnt have any problems with stability with them. the only countries ive had problems with stability are the chinese civs i think. Indo greeks are easy to expand because they get that manichaesm minor religion which is OP in terms of science boost, so you can run 0% science and still be the science leader. they also dont get any near spawned neighbours until much later. Their military units are also dirt cheap and very effective (the unique units) and you can basically build most of the wonders while conquering neighbouring lands at the same time. i dont know how you managed to get -65 stability. i dont think i ever went below -10 with them on emperor.
btw forgot to post a bug: song historic victory to never lose a fishing boat by 1240 is bugged because you can achieve it, but then you can lose that achievement if like in 1450 one of your boats is destroyed. had that twice.

civ-addicted · Apr 13, 2012

River guard said:
reading comments on chinese baidu forum was rather entertaining

-about the city ruin instead of adding realism chinese member seeing it as horror situation
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/1504436113
one member said from his play as Han faction there were 12 ruins by end of the turn - he called it "unlimited horror"/????, tbh I also played as Han once and I never see much ruin at all(while I have seen many city ruin as ming faction on mountain top like mentioned earlier), was it random?

There's a certain chance that an improvement is destroyed, and a small chance that a city ruin will remain; noting says "destruction" like a city ruin.

-about the praise and complain about the mod
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/1501546237
beside some text/translation bugs which also happen in english version(name doesnt show up correctly, currently maybe instead of middle country of Zhou/Qin/Han/Tang/Song/Ming should be using Zhou/Qin/Han/Tang/Song/Ming dynasty, and instead of Zhou/Qin/Han/Tang/Song/Ming dynasty simply using Zhou/Qin/Han/Tang/Song/Ming State or Kingdom as before claiming mandante of heaven)

Which one exactly? I'm open for changes in that matter.

Also they were complaining about the spawn of new dynasty while the old dynasty was doing well at the hand of human players, for example when Qin dynasty got above certain stability level Han faction shouldnt spawn at all, or if Tang faction manage to hold itself Song dynasty wont come into being to begin with - I believe currently the problem is already partly fixed with the evaluation/comparing the chinese factions when new and old dynasties exist at the same time, as when I played well as Han faction when Tang spawned, although I got some problem and stability hit after a few round when I was able to hold my position the new Tang faction just ceased to be (and their cities have automatically switched to my side)

Civilizations spawning regardless of stability is there since Vanilla RFC, and i think people would find it strange if they wouldn't spawn. Unsuccessful rebellions happend once in a while throughout chinese history, and in the game, those spawning civs make sure you don't neglect military, and possibly spice the game up a little. Also, if your stability is high enough, you will survive the uprising.

-they complain the leader of Han faction being Deng Sui
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/1502962607
Frankly I also share their frustration as there were tons of much better candidate/emperors but of course we all understand the difficulties of finding suitable leaderhead.

I always feared the moment a Han would complain about Deng Sui

I knew from the start that Deng Sui isn't the best choice, but if I have an awesome LH and some reskins of Qin Shi Huangdi's LH, i will look for a way to include the awesome one.
So tell them to not take it too personally

Personally I also got many imaginations/wishes which might be rather difficult to realize in this mod;
-I wish there could be more turns by adaption/including epic+marathon speed.

I'm not planning it atm, maybe after i fixed all the urgent bugs.

-I wish the rise and fall of chinese dynasties were also influenced/followed by natural disasters events.

I don't want to script natural disasters because the game would be all about finding a way around them.

-I wish the Hun(pre mongol) and Khitan(pre jurchen) civilizaions were more represented as they did huge impact on chinese history, though it would be sufficient to make them unplayable factions or even independent cities as compromise.

Xiongnu and Khitan already have a barb representation. But i sometimes think that Xiongnu could be quite fun as some sort of playable barbs.

-I wish cities in China were better represented with more early spawn of babarian/independent cities, in many cases Chinese factions cant build enough cities in time which shouldnt be the case. Also I got a small wish about Changan respecting to its position as Chinas heart and one of world largest/richest cities maybe its better to give the city even more ressources for production or growth or trade for early periode(zhou-tang era), though those ressources should disappear by the time of ca 900ad when tang dynasty went into decline, barbarian caused destruction and nature disasters including further desertification causing the city to finally decline.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang'an

Everytime you put an Indie city on the map you practically reduce replayability, and i want to solve this by making Tang and Song founding more cities there.

-Last but not least, I wish the pigs in RFCA arent black coloured...

They are meant to be pot-bellied pigs from SE Asia.

Tigranes said:
I really don't intend to start a long historical debate , but there are many instances in history when victors were gradually drifted towards the ways of their defeated subjects, think of Mongols of Ilkhanate or Normans of Wilhelm the Conqueror. Hinduism was much more complex than any of the indo-european cult of that time, and most likely is a synthesis -- 80% Aryan and 20% native Indian. As for the skin color you have a point there, but for example Vyasa, author of the Mahabharata and scribe of both the Vedas, and the supplementary texts such as the Puranas, was was dark-complexioned. But that was not exactly my point.

My point is very simple: Asian mod cannot ignore Great Sanskrit Texts. At least one single reference must be there, wouldn't you agree? City of Bam is not even on the map, but we have a Wonder for it. How can you avoid mentioning Vedas or Mahabharata? About 1.8 million words in total, the Mahabharata is roughly ten times the length of the Iliad and Odyssey combined, the importance of the Mahabharata to world civilization can be compared to that of the Bible, the works of Shakespeare, the works of Homer, Greek drama, or the Qur'an. Since there is no Aryan civ in the mod, or anything before Mauryas I just suggested to utilize Harappa, instead of asking for a new civ . Human player founds Hinduism anyway, when you finally convert they are renamed Rajastan of ... something. Human player wins the game as a Hindu state anyway. Harappa existed during 33001300 BC, naturally if they survive until 10 AD ("wanted but never were able to" goal) they would be "Hinduanized" after many contacts with Aryans . So there is no stretch to replace one of the Bronze age Wonders with the Hindu wonder. Again, please get my point and don't feel like I am pushing for this -- just explaining myself.

Sometimes i have to respond to requests that may sound like they are unjust; please don't get me wrong. And my reasoning sounds strange sometimes.
Of course everyone can give suggestions, but you also have to see that there is a reason for everything i've put into the mod.
First off, i never founded Hinduism as Harappa :confused:

I always went Pottery-City Planning-Polytheism for the UHV.
The Vedas can be included, not as a wonder (i find it to be weird when there's a book in the city among real buildings), but as a Project. I already have an idea how.

While I am in this casual historical mood let me talk about MUCH MORE important issue. I know, we were here before , but I came with a new ammunition . Ask any sober or moderately tipsy person on this forums -- which Asian civ is assosiated with ? The answers will vary, but Ghaznavids will not make to the top of the list, if they make it there at all, that is. Now ask any unbiased wikipedia contributor -- what is the LEGACY of Ghaznavids in the grand scheme of History:

3 Cultural UHVs for the first Muslim civ appearing in the mod? Cultural UP? Cultural/GP UB? I mean, ok, there was alot of Persian culture in Gazvanid empire, but 5 cultural references about the civ whos legacy was (see quote): 1. Big Empire 2. Islam in India. 3. Wealth through loot. Don't you feel it is a little overkill?

I hope you see what I mean, when I humbly ask to rethink Ghazvanids Please. 1 reference to culture is more than enough. I propose very cool UP -- 50% of the culture of the conquered non-Islamic cities converts to gold when you raze it. Call it power of Jihad. UHV 1 can stay for culture, UHV 2 about gold, UHV 3 about spreading Islam in India (to balance razing). I assure you this will be more fun gamewise and much much much more historically accurate.

Leoreth said:
I very much second everything Tigranes said about the Ghaznavids.

You can't let it go, can you?

To be fair, when i came up with it, i hardly took notice of the raids. And when i played them in SoI i was a bit puzzled that none of their goals was related to culture.
For a start, i didn't want to make another "conquer this, conquer that, and while you're at it, build something in your cities huzzah you won" games. I was motivated by RFC's Mali, which offers a completely different way of playing a game.
I'm not that keen on a mixed theme for them either. I just find it completly weird to play as a raider and a patron
And being biased about some UHVs has some tradition in RFC, to say it quite bluntly. You really can argue that German history has more to offer than war; just think about Bach, Händel or Mozart, and you have a point to include some culture-oriented goal. You even could argue quite dickish about seeing German history only in retrospect to WWII, like the past 1200 years are only a straight line to Auschwitz (which isn't quite my point actually, but this is the impression i get whenever i watch something from The History Channel) is just plain offensive. But every nation has its Great Artists, so you might end up giving every civ a culture-related goal if you take Political Correctness into account. Or take France; Napoleon's reign from 1799 to 1814 shaped Central Europe in his current form and has had definitly a bigger impact on history than the French colonization of Northern America, but it's not represented at all in RFC. I guess because it would end up being just the same game as Germany in its current form.
Oh boy, that might sound too aggressive... but i hope you get my point. I'm not meant to be mean

I guess it's not about taking an article from Wikipedia or any good book and translate it into a game and ending up hoping it to be fun. It's more about taking pop culture, general opinions and in the end impressions and form something that lasts. Like Vietnam; their UHVs have no roots in history at all. I just imagined what the Trung sisters would have wanted to achieve if they wouldn't have been conquered by Han: an empire that outstands China. And i find Vietnam to be one of the best civs. My impression of Ghaznavids was that they were great patrons, and i did learn more of course.
That's an unorthodox approach, but it led to the new ideas for UHVs which you stated to find creative. It may appear that i don't care about history; if i didn't i would play FFH. I just don't want to bound creativity. It's a game, and one don't have to take it all that seriously.
SoI's Ghaznavids are the raiders that they also where, but have no notice of culture at all, and RFCA's Ghaznavids are the complete opposite. Put together, you have the real Ghaznavids in the RFC Universe as a whole in some sort of subtle, Beatnikish way.
Propably there is no other civ in this mod that get so much hate from the community, but i still refuse to back down on this one. It's the more i try to argue about keeping them the more i leave real reason. It's going to become quite personal because they where 'my' first civ to be included in it's more or less final form, and their UP was the first thing i did with SDK. I played them more than any other civ (true story), and i ended up having a borderline unhealthy affection to them. I have to say that they won't be changed under my command, not because the power or something got into my head, but just because they are important to me personally.
I hope you understand that.

civ-addicted · Apr 13, 2012

artyom said:
this last version of the mod is very balanced. ive played rhyes and fall of europe and the muslim one extensively. and I have to admit, this one seems to be one of the more fun ones. and is arguably more stable and balanced than the europe one. this mod should be like posted on the front page.

Well thanks :goodjob:

a few things:
-i agree with above posts on religion: buddhism is overpowered

Every religion has it's UP, i rather think that Confucianism, which reduces city upkeep is overpowered. Just bear in mind that most civs adopted Buddhism, so you should do the same

-ming dont spawn

Ming still isn't in the way they should be somehow. They will be fixed nevertheless.

-barbarians are too annoying in many parts of the map, and the great wall is the best wonder atm

Barbs need to be annoying, but they need to be strong to destroy AI civilizations. For historiocity

-AI should be prone to expand more

That's quite hard to code. It would require AI modifing which i'm quite affraid of.

-mongols AI really stinks in the last version.

Mongols are sort of fixed in the SVN, and they will be stronger in the next patch.

-AI falls to barbarians soo easy(i know its probably intended, but its bad for playability). maybe AI units could get a bigger bonus vs barbs?

Same as above

-would be awesome to have like a 600 AD start map

I'm working on a 500AD scenario to give a new feel of the game. Which reminds me that i havn't released a patch in a while

-korean unique victory conditions too easy and early achievable. Japanese is also very easy "theoretically" because its easy to get 65000 espionage but for some reason cant seem to get that 90% of city thing. please change it. not only is the city vision mission annoying to accomlish, its also hard to understand where exactly east asia ends and whether barb cities count.

Some UHVs are meant to be easier than others. It would be frustating to play for someone who isn't that expirienced.
Every territorial definition, like East Asia follows Wikipedia and therefore the definitons of the UN

-siam should start stronger with more units

They tend to become too overpowered in the SVN version and had to be nerfed again. After all, they shouldn't expand much over what is now Thailand and Cambodia

-civilizations like harappa and greco indus need to have a chance to survive the barb attacks and not fall into instability (for the AI)

I heard much more complaints about them being alive too long, which has been the case in earlier version. Maurya aren't supposed to be meeting Harappa, and Indo-Greeks shouldn't be able to survive the Hephthalites, otherwise they tend to be the powerhouse of all of Asia.

-Delhi, greeks, koreans, japs, khmer could use more difficult historical goals, perhaps those that are like hard to achieve, but impossible to fail: like spread islam to 40% for delhi, control 30% of territory for greeks, settle 15 great scientists in korean capital along with the tech discoveries, etc.

I have to back up Tigranes on the Indo-Greeks here: I find them quite hard at the moment. Often i catch myself thinking that after another game i could make any civ harder, i also have to take into account that the people don't want to play every civ 10 times before achieving the goal. I think of myself as a slightly above average RFC player (i never played on Emperor ONCE), so i take that into account when i'm searching for a difficulty level.
But i could need someone to balance the game on Emperor

-more information on stability and about the exact requirements for some historical victory conditions which are duel to interpretation (where is hangzhou, wheres bukhara, what does it mean to have vision of cities, etc)

The orange lines in the stability maps define the areas necessary.

-civics: the best civic setup for any civilization is basically the same: any gov civic (they dont really matter), NOBILITY, CASTE SYSTEM, any economy civic, any religion civic, and expansion civi is best kept at the very first subjugation because the others are not worth their upkeep price. I'd like to see that all civics become playable and get a niche of their own, because right now the only civics (for most nations) that are cool is Nobility and caste system and ofcourse later on bourgeous if you play china and have developed a good infrastructure/buildings. I think a complete overhaul is needed for the civic system

It is intended that there is a optimal civic combination to distract the normal player from adapting certain civics as certain civs.

thank you for the map, i really enjoy it and played well over 100 hours of it.

100 hours is not bad. Thinking about the time i put into this mod in the past 2 years i pretty much could have learned yet another language like Chinese or Arabic :lol:

I wouldn't call it 'wasted' though, because it's terribly fun to do.

Tigranes said:
Yes, there are maps. Please look up the first page of this thread. They need to be updated, though, Turks flipping Almaty, for example, but their map does not reflect it.

The dark green areas show where the settler map's values are over 500 which is more importantly for stability. But i see that some of them needs to be updated.

P.S. By the way I never understood why Alexandria on the Caucasus (modern Bagram, famous for US airfield, 60 km north from Kabul) is not the capital for Indo-Greeks. Why Alexandria Arachosia (modern Kandahar) ?

Indo-Greeks is just a more flavourish name for Greeks. They meant to be represent anything Greek in that region, because the actual Indo-Greek Kingdom would have to start later. Alexandria Arachosia was the first big city founded by the Greeks, in 330BC and is still important to the present day, so it's better to ensure that it is on the map by making it a capital.

artyom said:
with the last version, greeks are pretty simple even on emperor. just make sure u build the great wall. didnt have any problems with stability with them. the only countries ive had problems with stability are the chinese civs i think. Indo greeks are easy to expand because they get that manichaesm minor religion which is OP in terms of science boost, so you can run 0% science and still be the science leader. they also dont get any near spawned neighbours until much later. Their military units are also dirt cheap and very effective (the unique units) and you can basically build most of the wonders while conquering neighbouring lands at the same time. i dont know how you managed to get -65 stability. i dont think i ever went below -10 with them on emperor.

Same as earlier. I see that you are one of the better gamers, but i think that vast majority have a hard time already. Like me. And now i feel bad.

btw forgot to post a bug: song historic victory to never lose a fishing boat by 1240 is bugged because you can achieve it, but then you can lose that achievement if like in 1450 one of your boats is destroyed. had that twice.

I see that this is annoying and has to be fixed.

River guard · Apr 13, 2012

civ-addicted said:
Which one exactly? I'm open for changes in that matter.

tbh I am still not sure about how the dynamic naming system in RFCA works and neither did I manage to find the file where the text descriptions are stored. For now it appears to me that there are 3-4 level of different names for each faction depends on wherether first city is founded and the size of the faction afterward, for example the han faction;
1)Rebels of Liu bang 2) Han Dynasty 3) Middle Country of Han, and after claiming mandante of heaven the name of the faction would be changed to Han empire, assuming its the same muster for Tang/Song/Ming factions the name Middle Country of XXX(dynasty) might be rather confusing for chinese players while "XXX Dynasty" would be sufficient as it is,
for example personally I would prefer for the Han Faction;
1)Rebels of Liu bang 2) Kingdom of Han 3) Han Dynasty (and ofc the name "Han Empire" after claiming Mandante of Heaven should stay as it is)
the 2nd level is needed because before Han became a real Dynasty it was a "kingdom" with Liu Bang switching from rebel against qin to a official warlord faction within China,
After the fall of Qin dynasty Liu Bang was first made the "prince" or "king" of Han(汉王）(as being granted control of Han zhong汉中 region which is where Han faction first start in RCFA) before he defeated the Chu faction under Xiang Yu, after that Han became the new imperial dynasty.

in similiar fashion for the tang faction instead of the standard
1)Li Family 2) Tang Dynasty 3) Middle Country of Tang (+Tang empire after MOH)
I would suggest change to
1)Army of Li Yuan 2) Kingdom of Tang 3) Tang Dynasty (+Tang empire after MOH)
because Li Yuan as the father of Taizong of Tang and the founder of Tang dynasty was first one of the many warlords in China, and after much success he was granted the Title "prince" or "king" of Tang(唐&#29579

by the sui emperor before he destroyed sui dynasty and founded Tang Dynasty himself. Like the Han there was a transition periode before Tang became the official dynasty. (as "state/kingdom" periode)

and for the song faction instead of
1)Zhao Family 2) Song Dynasty 3) Middle Country of Song (+Song empire after MOH)
I would suggest change to
1)Army of Zhao Kuangyin 2) Kingdom of Song 3) Song Dynasty (+Song empire after MOH)
Notice that Zhao Kuangyin-the founder of Song dynasty never hold the titel of "prince" or "king" of song(宋&#29579

, he was a millitary leader of the former dynasty and made emperor by his subordinates but leader of song dynasty were often called "king" of song(宋&#29579

by other states when it was weak, for example by emperors of Liao（辽） and Jin(金） empire so maybe we could make some kind of compromise here

and last but not least for Ming faction instead of
1)Red Turban Rebels 2) Ming Dynasty 3) Middle Country of Ming (+Ming empire after MOH)
I would suggest change to
1)Red Turban Rebels 2) Kingdom of Wu 3) Ming Dynasty (+Ming empire after MOH)
Notice that Zhu Yuanzhang -founding emperor of Ming dynasty first proclaimed the titel "prince" or "king" of wu（吴王） since the region where early ming faction established their power base (with Nanjing city being the centre) is the region of Wu which is why Kingdom of Ming should not be used as level 2 name.

Also notice that I didnt mention Zhou and Qin factions because IMO they are fine as it is, Qin factions 1)Western Ying Clan 2)Duchy of Qin 3)Kingdom of Qin 4) Qin Dynasty(+Qin Empire after MOH) is just perfect

civ-addicted said:
I always feared the moment a Han would complain about Deng Sui I knew from the start that Deng Sui isn't the best choice, but if I have an awesome LH and some reskins of Qin Shi Huangdi's LH, i will look for a way to include the awesome one.
So tell them to not take it too personallyI'm not planning it atm, maybe after i fixed.

I dont think too many people would complain if you use the original qin shi huang LH(yellow cloth+crown of earlier chinese emperors) for the Han faction as Han wen di/jing di/wu di and so on, after all we are also using tang taizong and hongwu of ming as practically the same model, just different cloth+background.

civ-addicted · Apr 13, 2012

River guard said:
tbh I am still not sure about how the dynamic naming system in RFCA works and neither did I manage to find the file where the text descriptions are stored. For now it appears to me that there are 3-4 level of different names for each faction depends on wherether first city is founded and the size of the faction afterward, for example the han faction;
1)Rebels of Liu bang 2) Han Dynasty 3) Middle Country of Han, and after claiming mandante of heaven the name of the faction would be changed to Han empire, assuming its the same muster for Tang/Song/Ming factions the name Middle Country of XXX(dynasty) might be rather confusing for chinese players while "XXX Dynasty" would be sufficient as it is,

First off, they have a starting name, then some civs have an early name (Kingdom of Goguryeo for Korea f.e.) if they have one city, then they have a default name (less than 7 cities), for 7 cities or more, for Islam and Hinduism and if they are vassal of some civs.

Spoiler :

for example personally I would prefer for the Han Faction;
1)Rebels of Liu bang 2) Kingdom of Han 3) Han Dynasty (and ofc the name "Han Empire" after claiming Mandante of Heaven should stay as it is)
the 2nd level is needed because before Han became a real Dynasty it was a "kingdom" with Liu Bang switching from rebel against qin to a official warlord faction within China,
After the fall of Qin dynasty Liu Bang was first made the "prince" or "king" of Han(汉王）(as being granted control of Han zhong汉中 region which is where Han faction first start in RCFA) before he defeated the Chu faction under Xiang Yu, after that Han became the new imperial dynasty.

in similiar fashion for the tang faction instead of the standard
1)Li Family 2) Tang Dynasty 3) Middle Country of Tang (+Tang empire after MOH)
I would suggest change to
1)Army of Li Yuan 2) Kingdom of Tang 3) Tang Dynasty (+Tang empire after MOH)
because Li Yuan as the father of Taizong of Tang and the founder of Tang dynasty was first one of the many warlords in China, and after much success he was granted the Title "prince" or "king" of Tang(唐&#29579 by the sui emperor before he destroyed sui dynasty and founded Tang Dynasty himself. Like the Han there was a transition periode before Tang became the official dynasty. (as "state/kingdom" periode)

and for the song faction instead of
1)Zhao Family 2) Song Dynasty 3) Middle Country of Song (+Song empire after MOH)
I would suggest change to
1)Army of Zhao Kuangyin 2) Kingdom of Song 3) Song Dynasty (+Song empire after MOH)
Notice that Zhao Kuangyin-the founder of Song dynasty never hold the titel of "prince" or "king" of song(宋&#29579, he was a millitary leader of the former dynasty and made emperor by his subordinates but leader of song dynasty were often called "king" of song(宋&#29579 by other states when it was weak, for example by emperors of Liao（辽） and Jin(金） empire so maybe we could make some kind of compromise here

and last but not least for Ming faction instead of
1)Red Turban Rebels 2) Ming Dynasty 3) Middle Country of Ming (+Ming empire after MOH)
I would suggest change to
1)Red Turban Rebels 2) Kingdom of Wu 3) Ming Dynasty (+Ming empire after MOH)
Notice that Zhu Yuanzhang -founding emperor of Ming dynasty first proclaimed the titel "prince" or "king" of wu（吴王） since the region where early ming faction established their power base (with Nanjing city being the centre) is the region of Wu which is why Kingdom of Ming should not be used as level 2 name.

They sound great and i'll try to include them.

I dont think too many people would complain if you use the original qin shi huang LH(yellow cloth+crown of earlier chinese emperors) for the Han faction as Han wen di/jing di/wu di and so on, after all we are also using tang taizong and hongwu of ming as practically the same model, just different cloth+background.

I could use him if i wouldn't have included him as Wendi of the new unplayable Sui Empire :mischief:

River guard · Apr 13, 2012

civ-addicted said:
I could use him if i wouldn't have included him as Wendi of the new unplayable Sui Empire

Well damn

I really liked the qin shi huang model for han faction, maybe using Chairman Mao model for sui instead? give him a dark cloth and a headwear /hat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Yang_of_Sui maybe.... Chairman Mao is underused somewhat :lol:

Tigranes · Apr 13, 2012

To be fair, when i came up with it, i hardly took notice of the raids. And when i played them in SoI i was a bit puzzled that none of their goals was related to culture

Wow, so much text to read since the the last 12 hours I was away

. You need to teach me how you make Multi quoting button actually work :lol:

No matter what browser I use it never works for me.

To some extent I do regard Wikipedia to be a documented popular culture

, we cannot expect that mod will reflect cutting age historical research. And it takes creativity to express the main Legacy of civ in therms of UHV goals. Finishing tech tree as Germany does reflect outstanding cultural (in broad sense) contribution of your nation, so you should not be upset with Rhye

. I totally understand your sentiment about Ghazvanids, and I will not come back here again :mischief:

. It's just the arrival of Islam to India is such a age-defining event -- Hindu culture can match Islamic poetry, but not the Jihad in its most pure form... I wish you had named them Samanids and created another civ for Ghazvanids, but I rest my case :deadhorse:

.

I would not even bother with this if the mod would not become so good. I am a big history fan, but I didn't know about some of the civs until I discovered this mod. Frankly I am astonished by your achievements in those 2 years!

Leoreth · Apr 13, 2012

River guard said:
-I wish the Hun(pre mongol) and Khitan(pre jurchen) civilizaions were more represented as they did huge impact on chinese history, though it would be sufficient to make them unplayable factions or even independent cities as compromise.

Just noticed this and just have to comment because it's one of my pet peeves: the Xiongnu are not Huns!

civ-addicted said:
You can't let it go, can you?

Hey, this was my first time comment on the Ghaznavids, my usual way to bother you are the Guptas and I've already managed to keep quiet about them!

Anyway, I can sympathize with your ambition to not follow the canonical set of UHV goals that could apply to any civ and create a Maliesque commerce puzzle instead. But I can't help but agree with Tigranes that the Ghaznavids are a poor choice for that, because especially an Asia focused game would be better off to represent their most important influence on (East) Asian history, and that's bringing Islam to India.

That doesn't mean that their goal cannot be about culture at all, but with the right UP they would be actually encouraged to raid India to get their culture.

artyom · Apr 14, 2012

Civ-addicted, thanks for clearing me up on a few things. I guess i just wasnt aware as to why some things are the way they are and that possibly they were changed because a previous version had those things even more imba. anyways, heres a bug I forgot to post: Golden age buildings and civics that are supposed to extend the golden age have no effect on it. the only one I havent tested is the burma unique building

civ-addicted · Apr 14, 2012

River guard said:
Well damn I really liked the qin shi huang model for han faction, maybe using Chairman Mao model for sui instead? give him a dark cloth and a headwear /hat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Yang_of_Sui maybe.... Chairman Mao is underused somewhat

It's not that easy, unfortunately. Creating a LH takes some time, which i don't have currently, and i hesitate to make and add a low quality LH

I always have the feeling that Menander isn't exactly brilliant either, that's why i didn't put him into the Graphics Modpack section yet.

Tigranes said:
Wow, so much text to read since the the last 12 hours I was away . You need to teach me how you make Multi quoting button actually work No matter what browser I use it never works for me.

To some extent I do regard Wikipedia to be a documented popular culture , we cannot expect that mod will reflect cutting age historical research. And it takes creativity to express the main Legacy of civ in therms of UHV goals. Finishing tech tree as Germany does reflect outstanding cultural (in broad sense) contribution of your nation, so you should not be upset with Rhye . I totally understand your sentiment about Ghazvanids, and I will not come back here again . It's just the arrival of Islam to India is such a age-defining event -- Hindu culture can match Islamic poetry, but not the Jihad in its most pure form... I wish you had named them Samanids and created another civ for Ghazvanids, but I rest my case .

I was just half serious; it's a point i would make if I actually intend to tweak anything about Germany's UHVs. It's always funny when i reread some posts of mine a few days later; they make me sound way bitter than i actually was :lol:

.
Germany, Rome and France are my favourites in RFC and they should never ever be changed.

I would not even bother with this if the mod would not become so good. I am a big history fan, but I didn't know about some of the civs until I discovered this mod. Frankly I am astonished by your achievements in those 2 years!

Somebody caring that much about RFCA is bigger compliment you ever can imagine :cooool:

Leoreth said:
Just noticed this and just have to comment because it's one of my pet peeves: the Xiongnu are not Huns!

Just for s**its and giggles: check out the Turkish Wikipedia article on the Hunnic language. Not only did the Xiongnu, the Huns AND THE HEPHTHALITES spoke the same language, it was also from the Turkic family. I mean, what else can it be?
I also read somewhere that there are people who think that Etrurian was a Turkic language.
Mmmmh. Nationalism in it's most stupid form.

Hey, this was my first time comment on the Ghaznavids, my usual way to bother you are the Guptas and I've already managed to keep quiet about them!

Anyway, I can sympathize with your ambition to not follow the canonical set of UHV goals that could apply to any civ and create a Maliesque commerce puzzle instead. But I can't help but agree with Tigranes that the Ghaznavids are a poor choice for that, because especially an Asia focused game would be better off to represent their most important influence on (East) Asian history, and that's bringing Islam to India.

That doesn't mean that their goal cannot be about culture at all, but with the right UP they would be actually encouraged to raid India to get their culture.

In retrospect, if i rather should have made them different to spare me from all those discussions, but now i went too far to admit that i made mistakes

artyom said:
Civ-addicted, thanks for clearing me up on a few things. I guess i just wasnt aware as to why some things are the way they are and that possibly they were changed because a previous version had those things even more imba. anyways, heres a bug I forgot to post: Golden age buildings and civics that are supposed to extend the golden age have no effect on it. the only one I havent tested is the burma unique building

I removed the Golden Age bonus from Elective Monarchy because it was already powerful enough (i just removed the text, so one doesn't have to bother). The Pagoda should work, and you're propably reffereing to Qutb Minar, which i can't say anything about. It's via XML and should work :confused:

I feel a little bad that i had to turn you down on making the mod harder. I was hoping that in the end you only played on Viceroy :mischief:

I had to make some changes in the stability module, and since i solely balance the game for Monarch, i have no idea how it turns out on other Difficulty levels. Maybe we can do something about it.

Tigranes · Apr 14, 2012

Do we expect any patch anytime soon? Project description is really needed, I just built a Porcelain and cannot notice any effect in my glorious Chola Empire:

Rhye's and Fall of Asia - Version 1.1

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