Favourite Historical Weapon ?

[Flying Pig]

You laugh, but it's really not out of character for a bayonet lesson - the whole point is to stimulate the aggression which ought to accompany using it; it's hard to feel as passionately towards a straw dummy stuffed with offal at 0400 hours in the rain as you will towards the enemy. Looked at from the other angle, the aggression in practise is designed to make sure you do feel sufficiently angry at the real enemy to stab him properly.

[classical_hero]

I would say the World War 1 Tank, since it was such a shock to the system seeing the weapon for the first time. They were poorly designed and would have been absolutely horrible to be in, but they changed warfare for ever.

[Ajidica]

It seemed almost like a Monty Python skit.

[Phrossack]

In that video FlyingPig posted, is that Rowan Atkinson at 1:11?

[Domen]

About the statement you make that the longest Hussar lances had around 1 meter advantage in length over pikes.

Don't forget that you need to start calculating the effective lance, as it were, from the breast of the horse not from the bottom of the lance. I'm not an expert in the anatomy of a horse, but I guess that the Hussar lance would need to cross at least 1 meter before reaching the breast of the Warhorse.
As far as I can estimate it wasn't necessary for the pike to cross such a distance.

EDIT: judging from the picture you posted in post #131, the lance needed to cross even more distance before reaching the breast of the horse. The Hussar had maybe 4,5 m lance to spare after it passed the breast.

I didn't forget about it.

But similar "loss of effective length" (compared to total length) was true also in case of pikes. I explained this here:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...rt=45#p1699455

Originally Posted by me

(...) the "loss of range" was also in case of pikes, because the blunt end of pike was proped against the ground near the rear leg (see the picture below) of a soldier, and a pike was sloped at an angle relative to the ground level.

It is illustrated by this picture:

And here more regarding length of lances and pikes:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...00322#p1700283

Originally Posted by me

Radek Sikora wrongly counted Beauplan's 19 feet when he wrote that article.

When he wrote that article, he was basing on B. Gembarzewski's book, who assumed that 1 foot = 29 cm. While in fact 1 French royal foot was 33 cm, not 29 cm. So 19 feet = 6.27 m. And Radek Sikora corrects his previous mistake and provides the correct length (6.2 m) in his doctoral thesis (link below):

http://rozprawy.uph.edu.pl/gsdl/coll...20Radoslaw.pdf

Unfortunately it is available only in Polish (AFAIK).

This is his doctoral thesis - "Tactics of combat, armament & equipment of Hussars in years 1576 - 1710".

See pages 153 - 154.

And when Radek wrote that article on http://www.kismeta.com, he didn't know yet about the existence of that surviving lance which is 6.15 m long (he later wrote on Polish history forum http://www.historycy.org that one of his friends found that lance in Austria). And probably he also didn't know von Wallhausen's account.

Another source which mentions 6.2 m long lances is Jan Michał Kampenhausen. But he lived in 18th century - that's why historians were not sure if he was correct while describing lances from 17th century. However, now we know also 17th century sources which confirm his data, and we know a surviving lance of this length.

============================================

Actually on pages 153 - 154 of the link posted above, Radek writes that one French royal foot (Le pied du Roy de France) was 0.324839385 m long, so 19 of such feet were 6.172 m (not just 5.5 m).

He also writes (page 154, my translation), that:

"Moreover, thanks to research of Maciej Downar-Dukowicz, we already know that a Hussar lance of almost identical length as Beauplan wrote survived to our times. The longest of lances found by Maciej Downar-Dukowicz is 6.15 m long, and this without spearhead. When counting also spearhead, it is slightly over 6.2 m long."

And on page 153 he provided some data regarding the length of pikes. Let me quote:

- Russian pikes from year 1660 - 15,5 feet (472 cm) *
- Cossack pikes mid-17th century - ca. 4 m (3.5 - 4 m pole + 27,5 - 63,5 cm spearhead)
- Swedish pikes from 1616 - 9 Swedish Ells (ca. 5.3 m), "but often during march soldiers shortened their pikes so that they were lighter and easier to carry", Sikora adds.

"Earlier, before 1616, Swedish pikes were to reach the length of 5.98 m" - Sikora writes - "but even at that time they could be shorter than Hussar lances" - he adds.

* And as you remember, I mentioned several examples of Hussars frontally charging and defeating Russian pikemen in this time period (the Polish-Russian war of 1654 - 1667, mainly battles fought in 1660).

================================================

And Radek Sikora mentions even one more source which writes about lances which were over 6 m long - a source from 1749 published in Zamosc. Check page 154 of his doctoral thesis (link above).

Well, ironically most spectacular of Hussar successes against Swedish pikemen were before 1616.

[mayor]

Originally Posted by Domen

I didn't forget about it.

But similar "loss of effective length" (compared to total length) was true also in case of pikes. I explained this here:

I stand corrected. I must say I'm a bit surprised by the length the pikemen miss... I would imagine that could be less

[Heretic_Cata]

You know what ultra-nationalist poles don't know, is that, no matter how many walls-of-text-that-no-one-will-read they post, everyone will still have the same opinion about their country !

[Yeekim]

Originally Posted by Heretic_Cata

no matter how many walls-of-text-that-no-one-will-read they post,

I, for one, find his posts in this thread interesting.

I was not aware of medieval lances having been hollow. Manufacturing something like a barrel over 6 m long seems like a tricky business, not easily done while on campaign. Given that such a weapon, as I gather, would generally not be expected to survive one serious charge, the challenges of keeping an army stocked seem daunting.

[Domen]

I was not aware of medieval lances having been hollow.

These are rather from 16th - 17th centuries. So already Renaisssance.

Lances used by Medieval knights were not hollow, AFAIK. But thus they had to be shorter and they were heavier.

as I gather, would generally not be expected to survive one serious charge,

Yup, it was rather a weapon for single use only.

Even though it was not just wooden, but wood strengthened by other materials:

Originally Posted by me

(...) these lances were usually made of wood of young aspens. Hollow inside.

Lance was further strengthened outside by glued hemp fibres (like bows from the Mary Rose) & tarred.

So in fact these lances were not wooden lances, but composite lances.

Calculations of resistance to bending (stiffness) & resistance to breakage (durability) of such a lance are provided in the book "Fenomen Husarii" by R. Sikora. The result is that a lance of a Hussar of certain level of resistance was 2.8 times lighter than infantry pike of the same resistance. This advantage was exploited in order to produce longer lances.

So a lance could be longer than pike and still had the required resistance to prevent wabbling.

[steerpike_swe]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armored_train

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:19...au_Nr._685.ogv

[RickFGS]

The portuguese Nau, most deadly vessel in the world for two centuries.

[Domen]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armored_train

A very overrated weapon.

In the age of Air Force and mobile warfare it became very vulnerable to attacks.

[kiwitt]

Every weapon eventually has a counter. It still does not take away the awesomeness of the weapon itself.

[steerpike_swe]

Originally Posted by Domen

A very overrated weapon.

In the age of Air Force and mobile warfare it became very vulnerable to attacks.

I never claimed that the armoured train was any good or even useful. I only said it is my favourite historical weapon. I just love the concept - brutal, obsolete and awkward, steampunk!

And I am quite convinced that even the awesome Winged Hussars of Poland would also have some trouble in the age of Air Force... An Apache helicopter would probably take out at least 3 winged Hussars in battle...

[Heretic_Cata]

You shouldn't have said that, now the polish ultranationalists will fill 3 pages with walls of text "proving" you wrong.

[Owen Glyndwr]

Originally Posted by Heretic_Cata

You shouldn't have said that, now the polish ultranationalists will fill 3 pages with walls of text "proving" you wrong.

Hasn't that already happened in this thread?

[Heretic_Cata]

Since when did that stop them ?

[Domen]

I never claimed that the armoured train was any good or even useful. I only said it is my favourite historical weapon.

The thread is called "favourite historical weapon" so you have right to consider armored trains as your favourite weapon.

I just commented on the aspect of efficiency of such weapons on 20th century battlefield. Favourite =/= best.

And I am quite convinced that even the awesome Winged Hussars of Poland would also have some trouble in the age of Air Force... An Apache helicopter would probably take out at least 3 winged Hussars in battle...

Since when is "Winged Hussar" a weapon?

BTW - no, Apache would not take out 3 Hussars because it wouldn't find any.

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Originally Posted by Domen

The thread is called "favourite historical weapon" so you have right to consider armored trains as your favourite weapon.

I just commented on the aspect of efficiency of such weapons on 20th century battlefield. Favourite =/= best.

well during the early days it was quite useful. Think of the eschelon war during the civil war in Russia. And as far as mounting nuclear missiles on them they're probably more dangerous/efficient than SCUDs.

Since when is "Winged Hussar" a weapon?

BTW - no, Apache would not take out 3 Hussars because it wouldn't find any.

Win.

[Aroddo]

German Broadsword and Longsword.

Versatile, effective and durable ... unlike crappy katanas.

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