RFCE 2.0 brainstorming thread

[DC123456789]

I like Sicily. It would complete the city-state filled Italy that it was for pretty much the entire time period this mod covers.

[Saturninus]

I really like where Baron3 is going with the Normans on most every count, except the UP and third UHV (he didn't clarify the UB; I like the name, how about an experience boost?). I think the focus needs to be on the warrior side of their culture. How about reducing the costs for promotions? Or maybe reducing maintenance costs since its a relatively small but far flung empire.

As for the third UHV, while it sounds like fun, it doesn't really remind me of something from Sicily's history. Why not tie into more into the crusades? The Normans where a huge part of the first crusade, maybe it could be like the Egyptian UHVs and require the player to destroy 50 units from Muslim civs (the promotion based UHV would help with this). That would also open the door for Norman assistance in Spain, which could be very interesting.

[AbsintheRed]

Kingdom of Sicily is an option, I was also thinking about them.
Switzerland and Savoy are a no from me
Too many civs will cause serious performance issues on the bigger map

[urban]

I don't want Norman Sicily to take away from the Aragon game, though.

[AbsintheRed]

I'm not sure how much would it take away from Aragon
But it's a valid point, and certainly an important thing to consider when we decide what to do with the Kingdom of Sicily

[Michael Vick]

Switzerland is twice the size of Sicily. A Switzerland civ would occupy an inevitable gap that we're going to see when the map is made bigger. While Norman Sicily affects the Aragonese, Lombardian, and Spanish game, nobody is really expected to expand into Switzerland. As Saturninus mentioned, Norman Sicily existed for 150 years, while the Swiss Confederacy was alive for more than 500 years of our time frame.

UP: Power of the Thirteen Cantons- Civs cannot declare war on Switzerland (The different cantons were under the influence of and supported other nations independently, no country ever went to war with any of the cantons, only sought out the support of the cantons for mercenaries). Remember how all civs used to be able to hire out their units for cash? Give the power back, but only to Switzerland. Also, all payments made by other civs on Swiss mercenaries not built by Switzerland go to Switzerland as well.

UU: Swiss pikeman able to be built in cities. (like how Aragon can build the Almogovar even though it's a mercenary)

UB: Kanton- replaces courthouse, +2 Stability, +2 XP for infantry (helps the fact that Switzerland won't be expanding too much, and increases gold value of mercenaries)

UHVs:
1) The Confederacy: Amass 10,000 gold and hire out a total of 100 mercenaries.
2) The Treaty of Westphalia: In 1648, be independent of the Holy Roman Empire and 'Friendly' with France, the Netherlands, Austria, Prussia, Spain, and the Pope.
3) The Ancien Régime: No tile of foreign culture in Switzerland until 1798.

I'm not against a Norman Sicily, but a civ exclusively in the two Sicilies would be either very short-lived or unhistoric and problematic for Aragonese expansion. Genoa already makes Sardinia difficult for Aragon AI, we all know that if there is a civ in Sicily, Aragon AI won't possibly be able to get it and we'd never see Spain in Italy.

I'm more in favor of what Saturninus mentioned, a kind of pan-European Norman civ with expansive territories beyond Sicily. The Normans as a civ would be difficult to work out, IMO. The Norman conquests of Sicily and Constantinople are already represented in a Norse UHV (the Normans are descendants of the vikings the raided Northern France). The Norman Kingdom eventually just became England, with Normandy being captured by France eventually in the 1100s. This is represented by the English UHV. I'm talking about this because if there was a Norman civ in the game, I wouldn't want the capitol in Sicily because that would make it too hard to capture by Aragon. What I do like very much is the idea of Norman conquests at Antioch and Cyprus. Could we have a Norman civ that spawns in Normandy, and conquers England as a first UHV? This causes a problem for England's spawn, unless the Norman civ doesn't settle London. When England spawns, they get all of England and Normandy, including the Norman capital, Caen? By the time that happens, there would be Norman cities in Sicily and the Levant one of which becomes the capitol? IMO, this is the only realistic representation of the Normans, and it's extremely complicated. I think they would be much better represented by independents.

[AdrienIer]

What would the Swiss civ exactly do for the general gamplay of the game ? Because if you can't declare war on them, they're just another trading partner, and even though it's nice to have a permanent trading partner I don't think it's worth the trouble.
They're currently represented by mountains and a few buildable spots in the west, like Basle or Geneve, and I don't exactly see why it's a problem ? Switzerland is mainly unpassable mountains, so unless you want to totally disregard the Alps, the civ would have to live on peaks...

[Michael Vick]

Originally Posted by AdrienIer

What would the Swiss civ exactly do for the general gamplay of the game ? Because if you can't declare war on them, they're just another trading partner, and even though it's nice to have a permanent trading partner I don't think it's worth the trouble.

Good point, the neutrality power was just a suggestion. Maybe the mercenary powers are enough. I guess it makes sense to have them defend against Burgundy, Germany, etc. They need something to do other then generate money and culture for the UHVs and build units to sell for the first UHV.

Originally Posted by AdrienIer

They're currently represented by mountains and a few buildable spots in the west, like Basle or Geneve, and I don't exactly see why it's a problem ? Switzerland is mainly unpassable mountains, so unless you want to totally disregard the Alps, the civ would have to live on peaks...

It's actually represented by this. I didn't make up those names, that's our city name map. Add the extra space with the map expansion, a few more resources and you have yourself a decent, roughly Serbia-sized civ with about 4 cities, same as Portugal in the current version.

[merijn_v1]

Originally Posted by Michael Vick

Switzerland is twice the size of Sicily. A Switzerland civ would occupy an inevitable gap that we're going to see when the map is made bigger. While Norman Sicily affects the Aragonese, Lombardian, and Spanish game, nobody is really expected to expand into Switzerland. As Saturninus mentioned, Norman Sicily existed for 150 years, while the Swiss Confederacy was alive for more than 500 years of our time frame.

UP: Power of the Thirteen Cantons- Civs cannot declare war on Switzerland (The different cantons were under the influence of and supported other nations independently, no country ever went to war with any of the cantons, only sought out the support of the cantons for mercenaries). Remember how all civs used to be able to hire out their units for cash? Give the power back, but only to Switzerland. Also, all payments made by other civs on Swiss mercenaries not built by Switzerland go to Switzerland as well.

UU: Swiss pikeman able to be built in cities. (like how Aragon can build the Almogovar even though it's a mercenary)

UB: Kanton- replaces courthouse, +2 Stability, +2 XP for infantry (helps the fact that Switzerland won't be expanding too much, and increases gold value of mercenaries)

UHVs:
1) The Confederacy: Amass 10,000 gold and hire out a total of 100 mercenaries.
2) The Treaty of Westphalia: In 1648, be independent of the Holy Roman Empire and 'Friendly' with France, the Netherlands, Austria, Prussia, Spain, and the Pope.
3) The Ancien Régime: No tile of foreign culture in Switzerland until 1798.

I'm not against a Norman Sicily, but a civ exclusively in the two Sicilies would be either very short-lived or unhistoric and problematic for Aragonese expansion. Genoa already makes Sardinia difficult for Aragon AI, we all know that if there is a civ in Sicily, Aragon AI won't possibly be able to get it and we'd never see Spain in Italy.

I'm more in favor of what Saturninus mentioned, a kind of pan-European Norman civ with expansive territories beyond Sicily. The Normans as a civ would be difficult to work out, IMO. The Norman conquests of Sicily and Constantinople are already represented in a Norse UHV (the Normans are descendants of the vikings the raided Northern France). The Norman Kingdom eventually just became England, with Normandy being captured by France eventually in the 1100s. This is represented by the English UHV. I'm talking about this because if there was a Norman civ in the game, I wouldn't want the capitol in Sicily because that would make it too hard to capture by Aragon. What I do like very much is the idea of Norman conquests at Antioch and Cyprus. Could we have a Norman civ that spawns in Normandy, and conquers England as a first UHV? This causes a problem for England's spawn, unless the Norman civ doesn't settle London. When England spawns, they get all of England and Normandy, including the Norman capital, Caen? By the time that happens, there would be Norman cities in Sicily and the Levant one of which becomes the capitol? IMO, this is the only realistic representation of the Normans, and it's extremely complicated. I think they would be much better represented by independents.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the Swiss, but I think these suggestions aren't very good. The UP you suggested is very bad for gameplay IMO. I think all civs (with the exception of the Papal States) should be able to declare war to anyone. How would you ever be able to expand your borders?

The Almogavar isn't an UM that you can build as an UU. Before the idea of UM, the Almogavar were already the UU of Aragon. They are now both UU and UM because it isn't changed over time. BTW, there are move UU that you can hire as a UM. This isn't and shouldn't be the bonus of the Swiss Guard or any UU. (The Swiss Guard should be the UU of the Swiss, if we add them. No doubt about that.)

I think 2 stability is a OP. And if the Swiss can't declare war, the bonus of 2 XP for Melee units is useless. And you can't hire out mercs for gold. You can only hire mercs "in". (However, the ability to hire out mercs can be a good UP)

I'm fine with the UHV, in general.. However, I think that "Friendly" with those civs you suggested can be a bit out of your hands, which I would rather avoid. And if we drop the UP you suggested, the last UHV is fun, otherwise you don't need to worry about the culture in Switzerland. You only have to expand your border and your done. No one can conquer your cities as they can't declare war on you.
The gold UHV could be improved by this: "Get a total amount of X (10000) from hiring out mercs. (if my UP will be the UP of the Swiss)


But this all is only if we add the Swiss. It's not sure if we even add them.

[Michael Vick]

Right, I fully recant my "no DOW" heresy by the way.

[Saturninus]

Has anyone considered incorporating a titles system like the one used in SoI? You could use it as a reward for unifying countries that historically were unified over time and don't always come together in RFCE. They could go something like:

Rex Britannia: Control England, Scotland, Britain, and Ireland; +2 Experience to Archers and Naval Units

Rex Hispannia: Control all of Spain and Portugal; -50% war weariness, +25% faith points

Rex Francorum: Control all of France (Including all of Burgundy, not including the lowlands or a possible Switzerland); +2 experience to all cavalry, knights from all three orders (if orders are founded at the time) can be built in any city.

Rex Italia: Control all Italian provinces, including Sicily, not including Rome; +25-50% culture and science

Rex Scania: Control all of Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Denmark; +25% gold for trade routes; all units receive amphibious bonus

Rex Germania: Control all of Germany (the provinces that this includes are up for debate); +25% production, +2 unit experience

Protector of the Holy Sepulcher/King of Jerusalem: Control Jerusalem and have some form of Christianity as religion; Relations boost with all Christian (i.e. Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant) civs.

Caliph: Control Damascus, Jerusalem, Cairo, Alexandria, Antioch, and possibly Tunis and/or Cordoba, have Islam as state religion; Relations boost with all Islamic civs, power to declare Jihad (this could be a counter balance to the Pope's crusades)

Czar of Russia: Control all Russian territories (Not including the Baltic civs or Poland, including all Kievan and Novgorodian territory); Russian winter power, workers produce improvements 50% faster.

I think a stability boost might also be in order for each of the Rex titles, so that civs like Scotland, Portugal, Cordoba, Burgundy, and Denmark can have a legitimate shot at claiming them. I don't think it'd be needed for the last three, since Jerusalem is one city and only Arabia and Moscovy have a shot at the last two. Or maybe unstable provinces change to OK or solid, like with RFCE++'s union system? The only problem I foresee with that is that it could manipulated to make conquering a massive swath of Western Europe much more feasible.

If it is included, I think some titles for the Eastern European and Baltic civs would be necessary, but I'm not as familiar with their territory.

EDIT: Balkan civs, not Baltic, in the above.

EDIT 2: After checking the province maps, these are my submissions for the territories for each title:

Spoiler:

Britannia: London, Wessex, East Anglia, Mercia, Wales, Northumbria, Scotland, Ireland, The Isles

Francorum: Bretagne, Normandy, Picardy, Champagne, Ile-de-France, Orleans, Aquitania, Lorraine, Burgundy, Provence

Hispania: Galicia, Leon, Castile, Navarre, Lusitania, Aragon, La Mancha, Catalonia, Valencia, Andalusia

Italia: Verona, Lombardy, Liguria, Tuscany, Apulia, Calabria, Sicily

Germania: Saxony, Brandenburg, Pomeria, Franconia, Lorraine, Swabia, Bavaria, Bohemia, Siliesia, Moravia, and probably Austria. (This is all of Germany's third UHV plus Lorraine.

Scania: Norway, Vestfold, Norrland, Oppland, Svealand, Gotaland, Skaneland, Denmark, Gotland, Osterland.

Caliph: Antiochia, Syria, Lebanon, Jerusalem, Egypt, and possibly a faith points requirement instead of Andalusia and Tunis (Those are just too far out of reach, and would knock out most other Islamic civs anyway.)

Also, Instead of A Norman/Sicily civ, perhaps that could be changed to a title as while? Perhaps something like

King of the Normans: Control Sicily, Apulia, Calabria, Tunis, Tripoli, Antiochia, Normandy, London, Wessex, Northumbria, Mercia, East Anglia. As the reward, it could provide the UU, UB, and/or UP intended for the Norman civ.

[alpav]

I completely and fully support your awesome idea. We need titles and it is one of the reasons that I feel theat SoI is more complete than RFCE. Also a title for the balkan civs could be Emperor of Serbs and Greeks. But that's just my biased view .

[JamesWilliams]

Would it be possible to restrict a Great Artist's effect to a province? Especially for the 1280 scenario, it annoys me as Bohemia, when I have to choose between having a city culture-screwed by Poland, or using a Great Artist and controlling half of Poland.

[ezzlar]

The church school becomes available from the classical knowledge tech but is buildable hundreds of years in the future. We should change it so it is connected to techs nearby! This goes for many of the research projects!

[AbsintheRed]

Originally Posted by ezzlar

The church school becomes available from the classical knowledge tech but is buildable hundreds of years in the future. We should change it so it is connected to techs nearby! This goes for many of the research projects!

I changed Church Schools recently
What research projects are you thinking of?

[Ogi123]

Are there any planned changes to units? Current ones in RFC 1.0 are somewhat unbalanced and non historical , so some change here would be nice.

[Sian]

any specific one in mind? ... Knights are overpowered by design

[Michael Vick]

I like the idea of titles, I'm not very familiar with SoI though, does the title exist only as the bonus, or is it displayed somewhere like in the DCN or in the diplomacy screen?

While a few of those titles are good, I think most of them are too huge and kind of unhistoric for civs. Also,

Originally Posted by Saturninus

The only problem I foresee with that is that it could manipulated to make conquering a massive swath of Western Europe much more feasible.

Right. What about implementing actual titles based on real historic territories?

For example:

Charles V was "Archduke of Austria", "King of Spain", "King of Naples & Sicily", "Duke of Burgundy", "Count of Flanders", "Count of Holland", and "Holy Roman Emperor".

Philip II was "King of Spain", "King of Portugal", "King of Naples & Sicily", "Duke of Burgundy", "Duke of Milan"

Leopold I was "Archduke of Austria", "King of Bohemia", "King of Hungary", "Duke of Burgundy", and "Holy Roman Emperor"

George III was "King of Great Britain & Ireland", and "Duke of Hanover"

This would mean many more possible titles, all based on amounts of provinces ranging from just 1 (Milan) to more than 10 (Great Britain & Ireland). I was thinking we could have the bonuses vary accordingly. For example, being only the Duke of Milan would give a small amount of culture of science, where being King of Spain would give a larger amount of faith points, etc. Being both gives both obviously, so this a fun to way to go around collecting titles. Smaller civs can participate this way, and there's no limit to what creative bonuses we can think of for each title.

The titles are going to overlap somewhat, but we can make smaller titles go away when conditions for a larger one are met. For example, the ruler of the English provinces is King of England until all of the Scottish provinces are captured, then its the King of Great Britain, providing a greater version of the England bonus. Conquer Ireland, and you're the King of Great Britain & Ireland, which gives a slightly better bonus still.

There's some kind of real, historic title for the core spawning area of every civ in the game. Muslim civs would get "Sultan/Khan" for "Emperor", "Caliph" for "King", "Emir" for "Duke/Prince". Orthodox get "Tsar" for "King" and "Emperor", rest stay the same. Every civ with a monarchy would start out with some modest title and get the chance to work their way up. Civs with Merchant Republics get excluded. At the founding of their first city:

France: King of France (The Franks? Changes after spawn of Burgundy?)

Lombardy: Duke of Milan

Arabia: Caliph of Arabia

Bulgaria: Tsar of Bulgaria

Cordoba: Caliph of Cordoba

Venice: (merchant republic)

Burgundy: Duke of Burgundy

Germany: (Won't discuss, since we don't know if there will be a Germany civ)

Novgorod: (merchant republic)

Norway: King of Norway

Kievan Rus: Prince of Kiev

Hungary: King of Hungary

Spain: King of Leon

Denmark: King of Denmark

Scotland: King of Scotland

Poland: (Grand) Duke of Poland

Egypt: Sultan of Egypt

Genoa (merchant republic)

Morocco: Caliph of Morocco

England: King of England

Rum: Sultan of Rum

Bohemia: King of Bohemia

Portugal: King of Portugal

Aragon: King of Aragon

Serbia: Prince of Serbia

Sweden: King of Sweden

Prussia: Duke of Prussia

Tunisia: Caliph of Ifriqiya (Tunis)

Lithuania: (Grand) Duke of Lithuania

Austria: Archduke of Austria

Turkey: Caliph of Turkey

Muscovy: (Grand) Duke of Muscovy

Crimea: Khan of Crimea

Netherlands: (Republic)

Prussia, Poland, will of course become Kingdoms after expansion into other provinces, Turkey becomes Sultanate after expansion. I'm not against the idea of the large "Rex Britannia, etc." titles, but these are historic titles and I suggest that its more fun to make small titles with small bonuses available to small civs.

[merijn_v1]

I don't think that every area should get an own title. It would be just a "2nd UP" that you can conquer. It wouldn't be special. I think that it should cover a larger area. (like whole Scandinavia, the complete balkans etc.)

You shouldn't get a title for just controlling your (or someone else's) spawn area. Everyone can do that.

The best way to know what the Titles in SoI really are, is trying it yourself. If I understand them correctly, they are a sort of bonus for an achievement, like controlling all of India, or be the Shahanshah (controlling about 10-12 provinces).

The ones I can think of ATM that I think are proper to the mod are: Protector of the Holy Sepulchre, The Roman Emperor and the Holy Roman Emperor.

[Wessel V1]

Titles could of course be tied to just the provincies they are attained from. For example any French bonus is applied within French provinces only. I think I like the idea in general, especially with more civs like in RFCE++ and RFCE 2.0. It gives many opportunities.

For example, a welcome message of: "Greetings, duke of Burgundy! How do you do today?" in the diplomacy screen would be certainly nice to see. If events make their way back into 2.0 (which I think they should), the 'royal marriage' event could be extended with these titles, and possibly some others.

On the other hand, we have to make sure that in this case a) most civs get a title, because otherwise this wouldn't work too good since many civs are excluded then and b) the number of titles is reasonable, and only one can be chosen.

Even more eventful could be the following: another civic category, or 'title panel'. Duchies, counties, etc. are all different titles for something that and I to be honest do not know the differences between these. This category lets you choose which title to hold. This option indeed gives a turn of anarchy. This way you cannot be Duke of X and Count of Y at the same time and the bonusses won't go out of control. Just throwing in ideas here!