Byzantine UHV3 and tactics

[Spirictum]

I thought opening a thread about that was better then to discuss it in other topics.

So here it goes: Byzantine UHV3: Be the Richest Empire in the World in 1453

To achieve this you need more then 5000 gold at 1453, as the Pope has something between 5000 and 6000 gold, so if you have 6000+ you won the game. No one can get to what the Pope has, or I've never seen it (and I've played this game since lots of betas ago, and this was always true - just one bugged exception that arabia had something around a million and seventy thousand gold, something they couldn't get as they needed to have an income of thousands of gold since their initial turn, and they were dead for some time because I killed them).

You are the Byzantines and until 1453AD you faced the worst horrors anyone in this game could see:
1 The Sassanid Persian Lancers (7str) since the beggining until the Bulgarians if I'm not mistaken, when you can only make Skirmishers (2str) of the Mounted Combat tree;
2 The first plague that only the Byzantines face (and the Pope, but that doesn't matter) around the late half of the VI century and first half of the VII century;
3 The arabs (635AD) and their huge spawn of Horse Archers just after the Plague, at the same time the provinces of Lebanon and Jerusalem fall to OK provinces and Egypt to Unstable (all from Solid, turning you to Shaky or Unstable) and not forgetting the Flip;
4 The Bulgarians (680AD), that normally appear when you are still at War with Arabia, and on the opposed side of your big Empire;
5 The Selyuq Turks (~1070AD), that gave you enough time to build your forces, and win the first UHV (Constantinople the Biggest and most cultured city in 1025AD), but that come with a 13str as a Heavy Cavalry when your best counter are the few Tagmata and Varangian Mercenaries (8str each), your Arbalestiers (6str) holed on walls and castles, the guisarmier (6str, almost useless, cannon fodder I would say) and the few Cataphract (10str) that you trained since you have just discovered the techs needed for them. Spawns inside your territory with 3 or four of them (one or two spawns at the same turn, up to 8 units at the same turn), and it lasts until something around 1130AD. If you lose a city, most of the time it loses the Orthodox religion, and it always gains islam;
6 Treacherous crusades, normally around the historical fourth crusade (~1200AD), if Jerusalem is not christian. This is the most threatening of your problems;
7 The Mongol Invasion (~1240AD), not as hard as the Selyuq one, but that comes in two stages with the Keshik (12str, light cavalry): first around 1240 until sometime near the UHV2 (Controll all Anatolia in 1282AD) and then after the Ottoman spawn until ~1400AD. It functions similar to Selyuq, spawns inside your borders, this time going farther on your land, 3 to 4 keshiks on the same spawn, one or two spawns at the same turn;
8 The Ottomans (1359AD), with a huge stack of overpowering units for your standards just under Constantinople, flipping 3 cities of your Core (Hadrianopolis, Nicaea and Smyrna).

So after all this if you managed to survive and fulfill UHV1 and UHV2 there is only a single thing you must do to win whatever happened to your treasure, diplomacy, territory: Steal the Pope's gold. The Pope has one city, something around 5500 gold at the limit year (1453AD) and he produces almost 0 Espionage Points. With a 50% stationed spy at Rome, you need something around 5000 EPs on him to steal his gold (10000 if you don't wait for the 50% discount). Aiming at him all your Espionage Points since the beggining of the game, without increasing it with commerce, you are easily able to do this. If you do increase, you only has to do it a few times, since you are a Byzantine Empire with all Anatolia in 1282. A single steal gets you enough gold to pass the Pope and make you the richest empire, the Pope the second richest and all the others behind you two.

That's why I think this UHV is too easy for the Hardest Civ of RFC Europe.

[ezzlar]

Once you have chivalry you are free to put 100% on the gold slider. Then just press Next turn until you win.

[AbsintheRed]

I agree the Byzantine 3rd UHV is not very challenging
This came up a couple time before actually, but was never changed somehow
What's the best suggestions for a new UHV?

[ElCommandante]

Since the whole point of late Byzantine history was their long decline over time and eventual fall in 1452, why not have the final UHV condition be to hold all of Anatolia, Syria, and Jerusalem in 1500, since this would indicate that you have successfully retained the core of the Empire against all comers. Maybe a stability check would also be in order?

[ezzlar]

Yes. That is a good goal. Or maybe the reconquering of Italy or something?

There is a good beta UHV thread we can use for this discussion. Or maybe start a new 1.0 UHV discussion thread?

[Spirictum]

I hope that with the possible inclusion of a Papal States player on 2.0, Byz UHV3 can be something related to possess Rome and the entire Italian Peninsula (and maybe even the isles too).

I've been playing on Monarch difficulty for a long time (only the first betas i used to play viceroy), and as it is I really think it's too easy to reconquer Jerusalem before completing UHV1. Byzantines have nothing to worry if they have Jerusalem: Arabs get crusades and barbarian ghazis, crusaders get revolts and independence, Byzantine get no problem at all, no crusade, no barbarian ghazis (nor anything else) and no revolts or independence.

So you periodically smash Arab horse archers near Antiochia and Alexandria, and then after the bulgarian threat to Constantinople is dealt with there is nothing easier then to conquer Arabia back (4 OK provinces).

The Italian Peninsula is harder to get for the number of Civs aiming at it, the farther distance from your core and all being unstable provinces. For the limit year I would put 1476 (1000 years after the deposition of the last Western Roman Emperor), but 1453 and 1500 seem nice as well.

But I really can't imagine a good UHV3 of taking back the Italian Peninsula without Rome, it lacks the most important city. That's why I hope that with these new ideas for the Papal States we can at least change the game mechanics to allow the Byzantines to get Rome and remake the Roman Empire as UHV3

UHV3: Reclaiming the Roman Empire
Control Apulia, Corsica, Latium, Lombardy, Sardinia, Sicily, Tuscany and Verona by 1476AD

[AbsintheRed]

Originally Posted by ElCommandante

Since the whole point of late Byzantine history was their long decline over time and eventual fall in 1452, why not have the final UHV condition be to hold all of Anatolia, Syria, and Jerusalem in 1500, since this would indicate that you have successfully retained the core of the Empire against all comers. Maybe a stability check would also be in order?

Originally Posted by Spirictum

UHV3: Reclaiming the Roman Empire
Control Apulia, Corsica, Latium, Lombardy, Sardinia, Sicily, Tuscany and Verona by 1476AD

Actually I wanted to avoid having another conquest/war based UHV for them
But I have to admit, recreating the Roman Empire (at least Italy and all the eastern parts) does sound very appealing

[Michael Vick]

The church could maybe be re-united if the Byzantines capture Rome. When Rome is captured, there is no more Pope, leaving the Patriarch as the only leader of Christianity. Just a thought.

Let's say Rome does get captured by Byzantium, what happens to the Catholic faith points? Who do they get gold and churches from?