unoccupied space late game

[ferretbacon]

I suppose I ought to preempt possible refutations of my observations (and subsequent dismissal) by first asking:

Does anyone else have the problem, late game, that there is too much empty space left on the map, too much unclaimed territory? It is a problem I've noticed since launch, one that's bothered me.

Compared to Civ IV, for example, where borders clashed against one another and there wasn't a scrap of unclaimed land left over, Civ V always seems to have perhaps 60% of land totally unclaimed, which is unrealistic when history is projected on the pseudo history of the campaign. While this game isn't meant to replicate or mirror history, it is optimally designed to simulate our world.

Simply put, there should be no unclaimed land, certainly by the modern era.

I realize the happiness mechanic limits the size of the empires. The most important function of this happiness mechanic seems to be that is paces the rate of expansion, while (what I see as inadvertantly) limiting the size of the civilizations in each game.

I suppose the next logical question would be to ask if this actually bothers anyone?

And finally, my reason for posting this in the Civ V God and Kings forum:

Has anyone heard if the expansion will address this issue? Perhaps by limiting access to luxury resources based on the era, with later era luxury resources giving more happiness to facilitate growth in the later eras.

Thanks, hopefully not TL: DR, I tend to go on too long.

[Zenstrive]

Never had such problems. Mostly few tundras or deserts left vacants.

[Louis XXIV]

Haven't had it recently. Early games maybe, but, by the time things start Industrializing, the map is firmly settled.

[ferretbacon]

Odd, because this has been an issue to me since the game came out.

I remember one recent game; I had had enough of Rome insulting me and decided to conquer him. I had to march my invading force, trebuchets and all, across approximately 15 or so hexes of unoccupied territory.

The only time it doesn't happen is when I set the map small and the number of civilizations high, though it always seems to happen on any map larger than standard, regardless of the number of civilizations.

Are these larger maps just meant to have empty space?

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by ferretbacon

I suppose I ought to preempt possible refutations of my observations (and subsequent dismissal) by first asking:

Does anyone else have the problem, late game, that there is too much empty space left on the map, too much unclaimed territory? It is a problem I've noticed since launch, one that's bothered me.

Compared to Civ IV, for example, where borders clashed against one another and there wasn't a scrap of unclaimed land left over, Civ V always seems to have perhaps 60% of land totally unclaimed, which is unrealistic when history is projected on the pseudo history of the campaign. While this game isn't meant to replicate or mirror history, it is optimally designed to simulate our world.

Simply put, there should be no unclaimed land, certainly by the modern era.

I realize the happiness mechanic limits the size of the empires. The most important function of this happiness mechanic seems to be that is paces the rate of expansion, while (what I see as inadvertantly) limiting the size of the civilizations in each game.

I suppose the next logical question would be to ask if this actually bothers anyone?

And finally, my reason for posting this in the Civ V God and Kings forum:

Has anyone heard if the expansion will address this issue? Perhaps by limiting access to luxury resources based on the era, with later era luxury resources giving more happiness to facilitate growth in the later eras.

Thanks, hopefully not TL: DR, I tend to go on too long.

No problems whatsoever. I find it much more realistic than Civ4 (for those games where there were an abundance of non-cultured lands - typically if I or someone else goes on a conquest spree). In real life, there are millions of acres of land that are not influenced by cities. The "claimed" lands you see in Civ5 are the sphere and domain of a city. I think it is wrong to think non-cultured borders as "unclaimed" lands. Here in the Western US, there many places where I can go and it feels quite empty. Sure someone owns all land but that is not what's represented with the cultural borders in Civ5.

[Gucumatz]

I rarely spread to 7-9 cities (admitedly I play small maps and normally with humans) and I have to say without AI bonuses its not really feasible to claim the entire map and remain competitive.

Tends to be smaller localized empires.

[ferretbacon]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

No problems whatsoever. I find it much more realistic than Civ4 (for those games where there were an abundance of non-cultured lands - typically if I or someone else goes on a conquest spree). In real life, there are millions of acres of land that are not influenced by cities. The "claimed" lands you see in Civ5 are the sphere and domain of a city. I think it is wrong to think non-cultured borders as "unclaimed" lands. Here in the Western US, there many places where I can go and it feels quite empty. Sure someone owns all land but that is not what's represented with the cultural borders in Civ5.

Sure, there are remote areas the world over, even areas that are hardly explored. I've tried to use this argument to satisfy myself, but when there's prime real estate, if you will, left unclaimed, it is just odd. I'm not noticing empty tundra or deserts, but fertile river valleys. In real life, these places are staked out and exploited by somebody.

I do view the city's border as merely the city's influence, as you say, but I suppose I wish that borders would expand until butting up against another border or going too far out to ocean. In my mind this would be perfectly acceptable, as you'd still have only the number of citizens in each city available to work tiles, while getting the visual representation of 'owning' the land.

Take Russia as an example and plug them into a civilization game: they would be a civilization that started rather isolated, and therefore their borders went for a long while before stopping, whereas Spain, France, Germany, and Rome, true to their analogs, would be civilizations that started in close proximity, and therefore stopped expanding due to space issues.

Russia, in real life and the game, generally lacks the population to exploit all the land and resources they've enveloped, though they still own it, keeping other civilizations and nations from those miles and tiles.

[ense7en]

God no, i have the opposite problem.

The AI settles every possible spot they can.
Seriously. Every. Possible. Location.

One tile hex in the ocean, settled.

Nothing but tundra and snow? Settled.

Yeah no, not seeing the issue here...perhaps you need to play at the higher aka spam-cities-like-wild difficulties....

[ferretbacon]

Well perhaps that's the problem; I play Prince difficulty. Does the AI tend to expand more with higher difficulty? If so, perhaps there isn't an issue (though I still wish the game mechanics were designed so that all land was taken up regardless of difficulty, map size, or number of civilizations).

[KevinLancaster]

The only unsettled land I really notice is when it's across an ocean, and that I assume is because the AI sucks at naval and will hopefully be fixed in the expansion.

[ferretbacon]

Whatever the case, it is interesting/bizarre to learn that no one else really notices this. Explains the lack of threads on the topic.

Perhaps I just have a skewed perspective for some reason.

[aziantuntija]

When I use the terra map type (<--if I remember the name correctly) where all the civs start from the same continent and the other continent is completely empty (well there are some CS but thats all), then I will encounter this unoccupied space problem.

When playing with this (terra or whatever the name was) map type the whole point is to start conquering the newly discovered world, but the AI does little to actually do that. Couple of civs will eventually settle some cities to the new world but thats about it. So at least in that kind of maps the AI is completely broken and definetly needs some fixing.

[CYZ]

I only have this problem with the New World. In fact, the Old World really gets filled up quickly, to a point that it's just annoying to see the AI settle worthless locations.

But the New World usually remains relatively empty. Though I must say, it often lacks good settling spots.

[theadder]

I have seen games like this earlier on, but it doesn't happen to me now.

From my perspective it seems to be patched out.

As some other people have noted I also have the problem where the AI will sometimes spread to every strange location that it possibly can; this even extends to locations that have no value for a city at all. Having said that the AI receives happiness bonuses, so it is possible that I might have cities there if I was in its situation.

Do you play with an unconventional map type? Perhaps there is something specific about that, or some other settings.

It may be difficulty related, but I think that at Prince, it ought to be fine; I play higher up the scale, so I don't see behaviour at that level now.

[Draskar]

Originally Posted by CYZ

I only have this problem with the New World. In fact, the Old World really gets filled up quickly, to a point that it's just annoying to see the AI settle worthless locations.

But the New World usually remains relatively empty. Though I must say, it often lacks good settling spots.

Quote!

I never played a decent game in a "new world map" (we are talking about the map with all civs in a main continent and a simil-americans empty to colonize right?).
All civs clash togheder and none expand it's empire in the new world.

[SalmonSoil]

I remember this happening to me a lot playing the Earth map type, but a little bit less on more normal maps like continents. Maybe you should head over to the stories and tales sub forum, there you should be able to find plenty of late game maps from different difficulties/maps to compare.

[CYZ]

Originally Posted by Draskar

Quote!

I never played a decent game in a "new world map" (we are talking about the map with all civs in a main continent and a simil-americans empty to colonize right?).
All civs clash togheder and none expand it's empire in the new world.

Yup, and I'm not sure wheter it is because the AI doesn't like to settle overseas or because there's not much to get there.

Anyway, there should be more good spots in the new world. It should be equal to the old world with even a few spots that would be good enough to be capitals. The AI should also feel more confident to settle overseas, I hope the naval changes will help in this.

[mabalogna]

Originally Posted by ferretbacon

Well perhaps that's the problem; I play Prince difficulty. Does the AI tend to expand more with higher difficulty? If so, perhaps there isn't an issue (though I still wish the game mechanics were designed so that all land was taken up regardless of difficulty, map size, or number of civilizations).

I play mostly on Prince for casual games and i dont have this problem. I do notice at maps larger then Standard the amount of land to civ ratio seems out of whack and the AI cannot expand enough to cover the whole world.

I'd suggest purposefully overcrowding the map with an additional 1 or 2 civs

[Lachlan]

Actually the only map type functioning well is "Mountainous" or "Mountains", very few water, lot of mountains and few lakes, big lakes or internal seas

AI is diabolically good with this map script

[Zaimejs]

What I'd really like to see is an extension of borders through troops or forts or something to claim the "badlands" in my territory. One thing I hate is when I have most of my space claimed, but I don't want to build another city just to keep another civ from building next to me. I would love to be able to put some troops in that open space to "occupy" it. I don't think settlers should be able to build in space that you occupy that borders your territory. Or the civ should ask permission or something before getting up in your action.

It's nice because it gives me an excuse to declare war.

l am playing a game... actually just finished. It was a bunch of islands and we were in the future era. There was this beautiful unclaimed island with aluminum, iron and a couple of luxuries that no one claimed. So I see this too. Weren't there going to be colonies or something... where you could set up puppet cities?

The other option that people have discussed is having barbarian city states... if a piece of land goes unclaimed, then they claim it and found a city.