catch 22

[Sportyatuncw06]

hey gang. I have been away from Civ Iv for a while and just came back. I was winning on prince pretty regularly and looking to move my game up when my comp crashed and I quit playing for about a year. Since I came back I downloaded the bug better ai mod and I am struggling on noble. Part of it is rust and part is the new mod is more difficult, but the one problem I have always had is I overbuild. I know I need to cocncentrate on building more units but I get stuck trying to build the economy and run into the same catch 22...

So units cost gold. I build up an army and by time I think I have amassed enough troops to conquer a neighbor... their borders have popped and they have increased defense so i need more troops. By time I build more troops they have become obsolete. When I finally get cats and can tear down walls the wars take so long and my economy crashes from troop upkeep or city upkeep from unhappy cities. As I kill my science the AI leaves me in tech and makes wars against upgraded units that much more difficult. Even successful campaigns lead to crashing the economy and have to battle back against other ai.


So basically my questions are this. When is a good time to start wars? I usually wait until after currency and Cats. Should I think about vassalizing ai or ending wars sooner to repair the economy? Am I worrying to much about the science slider? Should I just expect to crash it to 0% and work on my trading and specialist skills to make up for the rugged economy?

[Um the Muse]

Hi, welcome back. Here's another, related thread.

For when you're using catapults, you should have a lot of siege. You want enough to take down the city's defenses in a single turn (maybe two). People normally recommend half of your forces to be siege.

If everything is coming back to you, don't worry about crashing your economy; if you have currency, it's almost always possible to come back even from 0% science slider. It is rather hard, though, so if you're still rusty you might target 20% or higher instead.

[blitzkrieg1980]

Cat wars I like to have about half siege, but also I like to bring a lot of mounted units. They do a lot of the mop up after siege collateral damage. The rest of the stack is a light mix of units to guard the stack and for city garrisons. It is possible that you are over compensating by building too many troops. If you stick to a stack similar to the one described above, you will not need so many troops as to crash a noble or prince level economy. And, generally, the only reinforcements you will need is more siege and a couple mounted units which can get to the front line quickly.

[vicawoo]

8 catapults+ enough units to mop up.

About 2.5 to 1 for axes:archers, about 14 chariots for 4 archers.

Horse archers about 2 to 1 against a capital, if they only have one spear.

[Kid R]

Try not building units steadily all the time, as that drains the economy and slows your tech down. (That's how the AIs play!) Instead, tech hard with minimal army and build up your city populations. Then when you have achieved a tech advantage, whip and build a large up-to-date army as quickly as possible, and hit someone hard with it.

When is a good time to war? See "tech advantage" above.

[Mec AntiKythera]

Originally Posted by Sportyatuncw06

Even successful campaigns lead to crashing the economy and have to battle back against other ai.


So basically my questions are this. When is a good time to start wars? I usually wait until after currency and Cats. Should I think about vassalizing ai or ending wars sooner to repair the economy? Am I worrying to much about the science slider? Should I just expect to crash it to 0% and work on my trading and specialist skills to make up for the rugged economy?

Some ideas:
-don't keep all the cities you take, raze the poor cities. that saves maintenance and allows you to keep pushing troops forward instead of hanging back to protect the cities. the gold reward for taking a city can finance the push to the next city.
-demand techs for peace and declare again
-build wealth or research or run scientists
-perhaps you need periods of peace after a war to rebuild the economy
-war before cats can also be very profitable

[blitzkrieg1980]

Originally Posted by Kid R

Try not building units steadily all the time, as that drains the economy and slows your tech down. (That's how the AIs play!) Instead, tech hard with minimal army and build up your city populations. Then when you have achieved a tech advantage, whip and build a large up-to-date army as quickly as possible, and hit someone hard with it.

When is a good time to war? See "tech advantage" above.

AFAIR, you will usually want 1 city to always build units (or at least mostly building units) unless your diplo situation is well played. I find that if I don't have any cities training units (especially in the classic->medieval era), I will often get declared on either by one of the psychopaths, a backstabber, or a zealot of another religion. At that point, mass whipping units will devastate your economy anyway and you might even lose a city or two before winning them back (which can also be quite devastating). Although, at noble/prince, it is hard to believe the AI will produce a worthy stack so early on.

And while having a tech advantage is always a great time to war, it isn't always possible in the earlier stages of the game. Of course a Lib->steel cruissaire(sp?)/cannon war against muskets/longbows will go well. But you are unlikely to have a great tech advantage in the classical era (except for, perhaps, beelining construction). But at tech parity, with the right mixture of units in a stack, you can easily beat up on the AI (who has no idea how to war against a human). Even with a tech disadvantage, you can put a hurting on the AI. Cats vs. Longbows still works great, you just have to make sure to keep refreshing your catapult numbers.

[Ray Patterson]

Better AI is indeed hard.

You don't have to wait so long. I also used to do this, but then I discovered chariot rushes. If you have horses and an easy target nearby (ie not protective, not mayans) then chariot rush is easy and awesome.

The way you describe the effects of your army suggests either your army is too large (which can be because of what ppl discuss, ie not enough siege) or because your economy is poorly developed. You contrast improving economy with units, but buildings are just one part of an improved economy, another is terrain improvements.

Also, to be able to both build libraries AND units* make sure you chop and whip! Personally I don't whip enough judging from posts on this forum... but I have a suspicion you whip even less and maybe also don't chop enough.


*courthouses and markets for me generally come only after first or even second kill... at epic/huge

[cain3456]

Originally Posted by Sportyatuncw06

By time I build more troops they have become obsolete.

Try playing on a slower speed like epic or marathon

[coanda]

Originally Posted by cain3456

Try playing on a slower speed like epic or marathon

It's not necessary to play on epic or marathon to get an army before it becomes obsolete. Overflow production into the right units the turn you finish the tech, set every city to making the necessary units (and build older units to fill out the numbers in advance), chop with workers instead of continuing to make improvements, swap to work high-production tiles even if it means starving your cities a bit, whip every city on turn 2 then whip a second time in the next half-dozen turns... the minimum you should be able to manage is 3 units per city in about an 8-turn window. Your production cities should make 4-6. It wrecks your economy for a while as your cities regrow, but that doesn't matter - you'll double your empire size and rebound far stronger for it.

[Sportyatuncw06]

thanks for all the tips. I used some of the strategies mentioned but I think I often jump from strategy to strategy and need to be more consistent. I don't use whipping very often and I will attack with siege and lose half of them so I need to conserve them better. So here is another question. What to do about upgrading troops? Do you only upgrade experienced troops? Would it be better to disband obsolete troops than to try and upgrade them?

[coanda]

Originally Posted by Sportyatuncw06

thanks for all the tips. I used some of the strategies mentioned but I think I often jump from strategy to strategy and need to be more consistent. I don't use whipping very often and I will attack with siege and lose half of them so I need to conserve them better. So here is another question. What to do about upgrading troops? Do you only upgrade experienced troops? Would it be better to disband obsolete troops than to try and upgrade them?

1. Losing half your siege is fine. You're supposed to lose your siege, so you don't lose your other units.
2. Upgrading troops... don't upgrade medic units. Do upgrade units with 3+ promotions. Do upgrade units if you have them lying around from the past war and are in a rush to start this war. Don't keep units after wars if they don't have much xp and you don't expect you'll need them for a long time. Don't upgrade defensive units except in risky border cities or as-needed (e.g., your capital is often just fine defended by only a warrior all game).

[jaygilbert]

Agree with Coanda fully, except, if your capital is coastal, do be prepared for an AI amphibious assault (AI amphibious will generally not be as ambitious as a human amphib assault.