How many millions of people has capitalism killed? - Page 4

Borachio · Apr 24, 2012, 11:16 PM

Well, I shall have to go chase said thread. Where is it?

But prima facie I can't see where you coming from. The abstract is, well, abstract. It, as far as I remember, doesn't impinge on the material world. Do you maintain it does? This could be interesting.

Traitorfish · Apr 25, 2012, 06:03 AM

What BasketCase means is that, through a series of elaborate word games, you can make it appear that abstract concepts have a hand in killing people. For most people, that's chicanery at best, but he is apparently quite happy to allow appearances to pass for realities. Each to this own, I suppose.

Borachio · Apr 25, 2012, 06:41 AM

5 char

red_elk · Apr 25, 2012, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BasketCase

The formula for force and acceleration, F=MA, is nothing but abstract math. But when the M is a rock, the A is gravity, and F is the force exerted on somebody's head, it becomes clear that abstract math can be very, very deadly.

That's an outdated concept. Today, ruthless general relativity and deadly quantum theory are two most known mass-murderers. Actually, nobody else kills people.

Akka · Apr 25, 2012, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traitorfish

What BasketCase means is that, through a series of elaborate word games, you can make it appear that abstract concepts have a hand in killing people. For most people, that's chicanery at best, but he is apparently quite happy to allow appearances to pass for realities. Each to this own, I suppose.

As much as I find the first part of his post false, I totally concur with the second.
Concepts can and do have a hand in killing, the chicanery is precisely not in pointing how they do, but in nitpicking how it's not the concept itself which kills, but the person who is moved by the concept.

In fact, ideological killings have probably a higher body count than mere survival-based ones.

Traitorfish · Apr 25, 2012, 10:54 AM

Noting that a person is ideologically motivated does not imply that those beliefs are possessed of any sort of agency independent of those who act upon them. You may as well say that drunk drivers don't kill people, the belief that they are still sober enough to drive kills people.

Akka · Apr 25, 2012, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traitorfish

Noting that a person is ideologically motivated does not imply that those beliefs are possessed of any sort of agency independent of those who act upon them. You may as well say that drunk drivers don't kill people, the belief that they are still sober enough to drive kills people.

Man, you're going to say that alcohol kills people on the road ?
But that would mean alcohol has an agency, which is obviously impossible !

(see what I did here ?)

Traitorfish · Apr 25, 2012, 11:26 AM

I see what you tried to do, and I see it crashing and burning because it hinges on the incorrect assumption that I would make that claim. So take that as you will.

Akka · Apr 25, 2012, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traitorfish

I see what you tried to do, and I see it crashing and burning because it hinges on the incorrect assumption that I would make that claim. So take that as you will.

It doesn't crash and burns. It just show what I said before : "the chicanery is precisely not in pointing how they do, but in nitpicking how it's not the concept itself which kills, but the person who is moved by the concept".

Traitorfish · Apr 25, 2012, 11:48 AM

Are people moved by concepts? As a materialist, I do not believe that they are, at least in anything more than a metaphorical sense. An idealist could argue that it is indeed the case that ideas literally drive human action, but, well, they would actually have to argue it, rather than merely assume it.

Akka · Apr 25, 2012, 12:03 PM

So you're going to argue that religion wars didn't exist ?
I'm afraid I'm not going to lose time trying to argue about if water is wet or not.

Traitorfish · Apr 25, 2012, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akka

So you're going to argue that religion wars didn't exist ?

No, I'm arguing that religious wars are caused by religious people, rather than by religion itself. I'm surprised to find that a contentious suggestion.

red_elk · Apr 25, 2012, 12:24 PM

Religion is an interesting example.
The concept itself discourage people from killing each other, but people often can kill in the name of abstract religious idea. Can we say that "Christianity (or Islam) kills", knowing that Christianity explicitly forbids killing?

Akka · Apr 25, 2012, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traitorfish

No, I'm arguing that religious wars are caused by religious people, rather than by religion itself. I'm surprised to find that a contentious suggestion.

=>
It just show what I said before : "the chicanery is precisely not in pointing how they do, but in nitpicking how it's not the concept itself which kills, but the person who is moved by the concept".

Third time now, I'm going to drop it as it's becoming pointless to talk into deaf ears.

Traitorfish · Apr 25, 2012, 03:04 PM

And yet again I will point out that to say a person is moved by a concept is to attribute to the concept the power of moving, which as a materialist I do not believe to be possible. Perhaps, as I suggested previously, it would be possible to offer some idealist metaphysics in which such a claim would be coherent, but that is something which this thread as yet lacks.

BasketCase · Apr 30, 2012, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traitorfish

And yet again I will point out that to say a person is moved by a concept is to attribute to the concept the power of moving

Wrong. To say that a person is moved by a concept is to say "a person is moved by a concept". Nothing more. In fact, what you did in that quoted bit, above, veers very close to a straw man: paraphrasing an argument and changing it in the process, to make it appear somebody said something entirely different from what he actually said.

Abstract concepts do kill people. F=mA.

Traitorfish · May 01, 2012, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BasketCase

Wrong. To say that a person is moved by a concept is to say "a person is moved by a concept". Nothing more. In fact, what you did in that quoted bit, above, veers very close to a straw man: paraphrasing an argument and changing it in the process, to make it appear somebody said something entirely different from what he actually said.

No, I'm right, in both respects. (I don't see any need to mince word about it.) To say that X is moved by Y, as you did, is to say that Y is moving X. No reaction without action, which somebody as keen on citing Newton's laws as yourself should understanding. How can a person be acted upon, if there is nothing to act upon her? So to say that abstract concepts can literally move people to do X, Y or Z is to say that they possess the power to act upon concrete things. Which is fine, if you can present us with an idealist metaphysics in which the abstract is ontologically prior to the concrete.

To take this example,

Quote:

Abstract concepts do kill people. F=mA.

Are you arguing that the formula F=mA is ontologically prior to the fact of physical movement? Because that's the only way it could make sense.

eduhum · May 01, 2012, 06:36 AM

No one knows hoy many people has killed the concept of capitalism. None, at least, directly.

Fascism, it is known that it could have killed ¿20 million?

And lets see Communism:
-Russia: 30 million of dissidents
-China: 70 million
-Other countries (Camboya, Cuba, Yugoslavia, African countries…): 15 million I think

Sorry if I change topic but it infuriates me to see when people try to burn out capitalism and turn their heads of their beloved utopian ideology.

PS: OH!, and the Inquisition 4000 people in all history…

Traitorfish · May 01, 2012, 06:51 AM

Those were capitalist countries. The colour of the flag does not indicate the prevailing social relationships.

Leoreth · May 01, 2012, 07:01 AM

I know you actually are a true Scotsman, but don't do this.

Apr 25, 2012, 06:03 AM	#62
Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 19,894	What BasketCase means is that, through a series of elaborate word games, you can make it appear that abstract concepts have a hand in killing people. For most people, that's chicanery at best, but he is apparently quite happy to allow appearances to pass for realities. Each to this own, I suppose. __________________ Traitorfish is one of the most unlikeable users on the civfanatics forum. Nearly half of his vocabulary is jumbled up jargon, most notably of which is his use of ''as such''. -civfanatics.wikia/traitorfish

Apr 25, 2012, 06:41 AM	#63
Borachio Up yours! Universalist Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 10,487	5 char Last edited by Borachio; Jun 25, 2012 at 09:14 AM.

Apr 25, 2012, 10:54 AM	#66
Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 19,894	Noting that a person is ideologically motivated does not imply that those beliefs are possessed of any sort of agency independent of those who act upon them. You may as well say that drunk drivers don't kill people, the belief that they are still sober enough to drive kills people. __________________ Traitorfish is one of the most unlikeable users on the civfanatics forum. Nearly half of his vocabulary is jumbled up jargon, most notably of which is his use of ''as such''. -civfanatics.wikia/traitorfish

Apr 25, 2012, 11:26 AM	#68
Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 19,894	I see what you tried to do, and I see it crashing and burning because it hinges on the incorrect assumption that I would make that claim. So take that as you will. __________________ Traitorfish is one of the most unlikeable users on the civfanatics forum. Nearly half of his vocabulary is jumbled up jargon, most notably of which is his use of ''as such''. -civfanatics.wikia/traitorfish

Apr 25, 2012, 11:48 AM	#70
Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 19,894	Are people moved by concepts? As a materialist, I do not believe that they are, at least in anything more than a metaphorical sense. An idealist could argue that it is indeed the case that ideas literally drive human action, but, well, they would actually have to argue it, rather than merely assume it. __________________ Traitorfish is one of the most unlikeable users on the civfanatics forum. Nearly half of his vocabulary is jumbled up jargon, most notably of which is his use of ''as such''. -civfanatics.wikia/traitorfish

Apr 24, 2012, 11:16 PM	#61
Borachio Up yours! Universalist Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 10,487	Well, I shall have to go chase said thread. Where is it? But prima facie I can't see where you coming from. The abstract is, well, abstract. It, as far as I remember, doesn't impinge on the material world. Do you maintain it does? This could be interesting.

Apr 25, 2012, 12:03 PM	#71
Akka Moody old mage. Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Facing my computer. Posts: 8,455	So you're going to argue that religion wars didn't exist ? I'm afraid I'm not going to lose time trying to argue about if water is wet or not. __________________ If violence didn't solve your problem... Well, you just haven't been violent enough.

Apr 25, 2012, 12:24 PM	#73
red_elk Deity Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Russia Posts: 3,000	Religion is an interesting example. The concept itself discourage people from killing each other, but people often can kill in the name of abstract religious idea. Can we say that "Christianity (or Islam) kills", knowing that Christianity explicitly forbids killing?

Apr 25, 2012, 03:04 PM	#75
Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 19,894	And yet again I will point out that to say a person is moved by a concept is to attribute to the concept the power of moving, which as a materialist I do not believe to be possible. Perhaps, as I suggested previously, it would be possible to offer some idealist metaphysics in which such a claim would be coherent, but that is something which this thread as yet lacks. __________________ Traitorfish is one of the most unlikeable users on the civfanatics forum. Nearly half of his vocabulary is jumbled up jargon, most notably of which is his use of ''as such''. -civfanatics.wikia/traitorfish Last edited by Traitorfish; Apr 25, 2012 at 03:08 PM.

May 01, 2012, 06:36 AM	#78
eduhum Blatantly sarcastic Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Barcelona Posts: 479	No one knows hoy many people has killed the concept of capitalism. None, at least, directly. Fascism, it is known that it could have killed ¿20 million? And lets see Communism: -Russia: 30 million of dissidents -China: 70 million -Other countries (Camboya, Cuba, Yugoslavia, African countries…): 15 million I think Sorry if I change topic but it infuriates me to see when people try to burn out capitalism and turn their heads of their beloved utopian ideology. PS: OH!, and the Inquisition 4000 people in all history… __________________ … …A Modern Armor has come!! Aaaah, one of the Modern Armor has come!Everybody to the bunkers!! All is lost!! A Modern Armor has come!! Run for your lives!! Women and children first!!: A Modern Armor has come!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!: Real Madrid Club de Futbol! Lelelelelele!Independentistas: Cataluña no es Castilla. Cataluña es España. My Index of Civ4 finished Stories:http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=357113My first story, AGR:RAND Russia:http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=371892

May 01, 2012, 06:51 AM	#79
Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 19,894	Those were capitalist countries. The colour of the flag does not indicate the prevailing social relationships. __________________ Traitorfish is one of the most unlikeable users on the civfanatics forum. Nearly half of his vocabulary is jumbled up jargon, most notably of which is his use of ''as such''. -civfanatics.wikia/traitorfish

May 01, 2012, 07:01 AM	#80
Leoreth Knight of Time Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Land of Heat and Clockwork Posts: 14,499	I know you actually are a true Scotsman, but don't do this. __________________ How to be brilliant: Come up with something cool, then blame it on your brain. Play RFC Dawn of Civilization version 1.10 and relive the history of the world! Conquer Iberia as the Moors, dominate Asian trade as the Tamils, or resist colonization as the Kingdom of Kongo.

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