Pre-StNES I: Beneath the Jade Moon

[alex994]

Expressing interest: Padimon's clan on peninsula east of the Pale City.

I'll give more when I get around to it.

[Brougal]

I'm interested, old clan west of Pale City, on the edge of unknown area in middle of Bandiyet Rayaki territory, known for revearing Padimon in particular.

[Optical]

I'm up for another Starlife-branded NES, if y'all will have me.

[theDright]

I am interested, but don't know if I will have the time. Could you post a map that has climate/terrain for the new map?

[Ninja Dude]

I'd wish to have a clan situated on the land between where the river splits to the west of the Pale city. They'd claim to be descendents of Serlensi, shielding the Pale city from "lesser peoples and barbarians."

If I can't have that, perhaps an old clan to the far south of the Pale City?

[The Strategos]

Originally Posted by Starlife

And while I could come up with detailed lineages for every player's family, as well as historical events contributing to mentalities and dispositions, I feel it would be contrived in comparison to making our way through 1,000 years of time with fast-paced updates. I want detailed family trees, reasons for lords are acting the way they are acting, baskets of casus belli, developed regional cultures, and so on. I could do it all by myself -- I did not change things around out of laziness.

One thousand years is a long time, the longest recorded family feud lasted ~400 years, why in the world would you need almost three times that length to explain a lord’s motivation? Also consider that any history is going to be as much mythologizing as recording what modern westerners would consider “history.” It is much more likely that a “recent” feud will be given a mytho-historic past than 100+ year history will impact present interactions.

But far better to get a few exceptional players together to interact from the beginning of settlement on Jyotnos, than to put those players in the shoes of lords they have little knowledge of themselves, dealing with unconvincing rivalries.

The history of NESing seems to heavily suggest your fears are unfounded.

Originally Posted by Starlife

This NES will eventually become a story about many things: war, politics, and empire, to name a few of the most important concepts. All of this will be within a world where magic is all but dead, unknown to those who enjoy more practical pursuits, but still living as a flicker in far-away lands.

If there is anything that history has taught us, it is that for Pre-Enlightenment humans, magic does not actually need to exist for magic to be seen as fundamentally central to their worldview, even in the most “philosophical” and “rational” cultures (yes Rome and Greece, I am looking at you). I see no reason for it not to be the same case here.

-> Most clans revere Luseysi and his subsequent heirs as a supreme god. The nine prophets who assisted Luseysi in the migrations are considered saints (Daryan, Erveta, Haimara, Innadi, Kolanty, Lioten, Padimon, Rodisana, and Serlensi).

I really am confused by your insistence on using “saint” terminology. Polytheism has bequeathed us so many more terms that encapsulate what you are trying to describe without bringing along the ideas of moral behavior that are encapsulated in the word “saint.”

The emperor's authority is religious moreso than political, though he does offer a considerable unifying presence.

This is a very abrupt shift in the meaning and function of the “Emperor.” It has only been ten years since the death of an Emperor wielding great political and military power and already the position has been emasculated to such an extent?

-> Technology is at a mid-iron age level. Of course, we won't stay there.

You said late-bronze above.

<snip> Stuff about religion <snip>

Your religion section appears to me to be a little confused. Without forcing my ideas of what the religion should be I merely suggest that you consider the “newness” of the cult. Of course the spread of the cult is considerably helped by the polytheistic (ancestor worship?) culture so that people can add the cult to their old cults. Which should be emphasized (for the player’s sake if for no one elses), polytheists do not “convert” they “add.” You mention that temples may contain statues of the old gods who no longer function as deities, but there is really no reason to replace them (unless the previous gods were locale-based deities, the gods of particular cities, forests, streams, mountains, etc. and for whatever reason the gods did not migrate with the people). In addition, what concrete steps did Luseysi do to promote his worship during his lifetime. As it is only 10 years since his death, his worship is really going to center around the places he promoted (which for purely political as well as sociological reasons will be mainly urban, and probably close to the capital) and the places those who wanted to flatter him built.

Padimon: The Linguist. It was said that he knew over a thousand languages, including the languages of fire and birds. He was long treated as a heretic, until he came to Luseysi's aid, when Luseysi could not communicate with some of the fringe chiefdoms.

“Heretic” should be a meaningless term in the religious structure you have created. Perhaps you meant heathen (which while still anachronistic is at least a better term)?

[Starlife]

Originally Posted by The Strategos

One thousand years is a long time, the longest recorded family feud lasted ~400 years, why in the world would you need almost three times that length to explain a lord’s motivation? Also consider that any history is going to be as much mythologizing as recording what modern westerners would consider “history.” It is much more likely that a “recent” feud will be given a mytho-historic past than 100+ year history will impact present interactions.

Sorry, I might have made myself unclear. I wanted to progress only 1,000 years, not 3,000 years, before slowing time.

The history of NESing seems to heavily suggest your fears are unfounded.

If you guys entrust me to come up with the world, then I will gladly do my best. But I hope that I could at least rely on input via this thread, from members such as yourself.

If there is anything that history has taught us, it is that for Pre-Enlightenment humans, magic does not actually need to exist for magic to be seen as fundamentally central to their worldview, even in the most “philosophical” and “rational” cultures (yes Rome and Greece, I am looking at you). I see no reason for it not to be the same case here.

Precisely. That is my premise, in a nutshell. And in fact, I rarely see "fantasy" as "fantasy" itself, but moreso a culture's view of it as fantastic.

I really am confused by your insistence on using “saint” terminology. Polytheism has bequeathed us so many more terms that encapsulate what you are trying to describe without bringing along the ideas of moral behavior that are encapsulated in the word “saint.”

Actually, I largely used the terminology "prophet" in my OP for this thread, but reverted to Saint further along. A foolish mistake, and I have no doubt it was because my head has been buried in the baroque. It shall be changed.

This is a very abrupt shift in the meaning and function of the “Emperor.” It has only been ten years since the death of an Emperor wielding great political and military power and already the position has been emasculated to such an extent?

Again, I think I made myself misunderstood. I want his authority to be religious moreso than political, but not absent of powerful political authority. It's silly to separate "religious" and "political", any way, at such a time. A leftover from the previous ideas involving an Executor.

You said late-bronze above.

Must have been a typo.

“Heretic” should be a meaningless term in the religious structure you have created. Perhaps you meant heathen (which while still anachronistic is at least a better term)?

I meant it as "A person holding an opinion at odds with what is generally accepted".

I will respond to your larger blurb on religion later this evening. Thanks for the input, as usual.

[Starlife]

Right, okay. Regarding saint terminology: while I admit it is a poor term to explain the concept, and I will ditch it for a world-specific term, let me explain my reasoning in using it. I am not describing a polytheistic religion. I am describing a monotheistic one. The nine prophets were not to be regarded as gods, but rather figures of great guidance -- apostle might even be a better word, but of course that applies to Jesus Christ only, so would not be appropriate in this circumstance. I suppose I used the word saint (or, in previous renditions, "philosopher" or "prophet") to emphasize their status as cultural role-models. Forgive me for the one-dimensional interpretation. "Bodhisattva" is too Buddha-specific. Moving on from Buddhism, terms from many polytheistic religions are socially or culturally-specific. The dictionary explains a saint as, "A person acknowledged as holy or virtuous." I thought it to be a fairly neutral term, compared to other religious words. But, I digress; I have admitted it is a poor choice of terminology, and I will likely replace it with something world-specific, or something as simple as "prophet" or "philosopher", as I mixed and matched in the OP.

Your religion section appears to me to be a little confused. Without forcing my ideas of what the religion should be I merely suggest that you consider the “newness” of the cult. Of course the spread of the cult is considerably helped by the polytheistic (ancestor worship?) culture so that people can add the cult to their old cults. Which should be emphasized (for the player’s sake if for no one elses), polytheists do not “convert” they “add.”

I have not fully described Ekudhism. And in fact, my whole reasoning for leaving that section open was to give players room to describe any emerging regional differences, or cross-overs altogether.

You mention that temples may contain statues of the old gods who no longer function as deities, but there is really no reason to replace them (unless the previous gods were locale-based deities, the gods of particular cities, forests, streams, mountains, etc. and for whatever reason the gods did not migrate with the people).

There are many ways to respond to this point, and I don't know if I should begin to put it in such a narrow hole. But, I will say that I imagined Ekudhism to be druidic and very much of the land. That does not mean it cannot exist in a new land altogether, because as you know, religions are rarely so static. What I imagined is that the Alyusian Ruin was considered by many to be a betrayal by the old gods, a complete annihilation of the lands they knew and loved. Of course, the volcanic lands in the distance would have been revered, and known to be dangerous, but the sheer destruction it unleashed, along with the fault lines, caused Alyusians to altogether lose their faith. It is for this reason that many of the nine prophets were outcasts. They held views or ideas that were not the norm (the norm being a rather strict collection of chiefdoms dictating warrior-code policies against "fringe" peoples related to the Alyusians). Yet I desire their lives to be kept rather mysterious, and open to development and interpretations.

Replacing the old gods is thus rather justified. Or at least, the demotion of them from gods into relics of superstition, perhaps obsessive compulsive behaviors that are hard to shake. The "old" clans, though, prospered in Uedos based on their old codes and Ekudhist faith; they might have a different interpretation. In fact, it is likely every major population group has a different interpretation of both the new and old religious ideals.

In addition, what concrete steps did Luseysi do to promote his worship during his lifetime.

I haven't really covered this in the concept notes, though I'd love to develop it with you and all others interested in the NES. I was caught between him encouraging worship, or those around him encouraging it, or both. Did he encourage followers to write texts of his life, which became some sort of canon? Did he encourage the populace not to worship him altogether, but instead to respect his authority, as well as the authority of his heirs (and tell the populace to "worship the moon")? Did he know the area of his death would swell with followers only a decade after he passed?

As it is only 10 years since his death, his worship is really going to center around the places he promoted (which for purely political as well as sociological reasons will be mainly urban, and probably close to the capital) and the places those who wanted to flatter him built.

I couldn't agree more.

* * * * * * *

As for the issue about whether or not to start at such an early point in our history, or later, I am open to suggestions. As I've said, I'm not a veteran NESer. I don't know what NESers are capable of overall. No offense to you all, but not sure if its in our best interests to develop the world from scratch -- in fact, it very well could create more inconsistencies than do the opposite.

And I hope to avoid orders that are two sentences long. Please. A certain level of depth in orders should be requisite.

[Terrance888]

As for the issue about whether or not to start at such an early point in our history, or later, I am open to suggestions. As I've said, I'm not a veteran NESer. I don't know what NESers are capable of overall. No offense to you all, but not sure if its in our best interests to develop the world from scratch -- in fact, it very well could create more inconsistencies than do the opposite.

I think that this might be fine, especially if you do an "update 0" of the 100 years migration talking about how our clans got their initial deliniation and settlement areas. If we consider this the "we've found the promised land, now let us spread out" phrase, then our choice of where to spread out after the Emperor's death would pose the first budding conflicts of the story (why did two clans settle next to each other? Why did one clan settle along the way of another's migration routes, ect) and give us structure.

If you want to do it 100, 200, or even 500 years after the migration you will still have various inconsistances and such. The best way is to do an update 0 and smudge out the starting inconsistances, which will work they way out through the 1000-year period of the "premedieval NES"

[Starlife]

Thanks for the suggestion, terrance. I will surely do an update 0 if we choose that path. But I'm now wondering if I should actually apply the full force of my imagination to creating an entirely consistent world myself -- with input from you all, rather than direct update cycles that could potentially waste our time. It depends on what kind of game you all want to play; one in which I develop the world, or one in which you all share the load.

And it's actually a very good thing to bring up questions regarding the religion, for I imagine families themselves would have questions about the religion and the direction it is headed. They likely have faith and loyalty in emperors after Luseysi, but just how much, and at what point does it bend or break? Alex asked a good question in #NES earlier, along the lines of: Can we dethrone a god? There is no easy answer. I don't know... can you? Who keeps his power secure, and who settles succession disputes? This is a big reason why I brought the Executor into the concept in earlier renditions of this world.

[North King]

Color me interested, I really like the looks of this so far. Put me down for...

1) The Emperor? If this is possible, it might be fun to play a largely symbolic figure and write about politics in the Pale City. But I understand if it wouldn't be.
2) A tribe of the Bandiyet Rayaki northwest of the Pale City...
3) A Monastery of Luseysanor, somewhere along the route of the migration -- possibly just north of that river that issues out of the Koanyet Rayaki?

Random-ish choices, yes, but... any of the three would be fun.

[Optical]

After re-reading through the options, these are my preferences:

Lioten's descendants, Innadi's descendants, Rodisana's descendants.

[SKILORD]

I'm interested in Lioten's progeny or an old clan. I mean, I'd like to be an urban sort of clan, but wherever you put me I'd deal.

If Haseri or Optical has Lioten locked down then don't worry, I'll be old clan, but I'd still prefer to be urban.

[Starlife]

Well, keep in mind that clans are expected to shatter and break up into several families in the long-term. Players will eventually have to pick from the bits. Lioten's descendents could very well turn into 3 or 4 separate houses by the time we pass the iron age. So no matter who "gets" his immediate descendants, there could be a plethora of options for players attracted to his life and wishing to somehow use his ideas to convey their own ideals.

Also keep in mind that being the descendant of a poet does not actually make you a poet, or being the descendant of "the Swordsman" does not make you good with a blade. How you interpret your ancestors is largely up to you, and how you use it for propaganda is another matter altogether.

Originally Posted by North King

1) The Emperor? If this is possible, it might be fun to play a largely symbolic figure and write about politics in the Pale City. But I understand if it wouldn't be.

I am leaning more and more towards allowing this. It seems to fit with the stuff I'm writing for this NES on my computer, but have yet to post.

As discussed in #NES, your other two options are interesting, as well. The second would bring more personality to the as-of-now faceless natives, while your third would bring dynamism to Luseysanor (as of the game start, roughly 100 years after the migrations, I imagine monasteries are a new idea -- perhaps an attempt to formalize temple caretakers and their education, as well as a structure used to pump up the prestige of the faith and its priests).

Which reminds me: I'm going to alter the canon I posted about having priests always be related to the "saint" in question, or Luseysi himself. Maybe it should be that way at the beginning, but as clans split and migrate, I have a feeling that such a strict policy will change.

[SKILORD]

No, I figured. My first thought about him was that I didn't want to be holding my stories and poems up to the sort of standard that is attributed to Lioten.

Then I realized I could be a screw-up descendant of his.

[The Strategos]

Originally Posted by Starlife

I am not describing a polytheistic religion. I am describing a monotheistic one.

Really? I completely did not get that from what you described. I’ll just leave it with saying, eww.

The dictionary explains a saint as, "A person acknowledged as holy or virtuous." I thought it to be a fairly neutral term, compared to other religious words.

Again, my mistake of interpreting what you were saying. I thought that this religion was polytheistic and assumed that it had the same character as virtually all polytheistic religions (in the west) in that ethics and religion were divorced. You can see, therefore, how as I was assuming ethics and religion were naturally divorced I would disagree with a term that is so heavily invested with moralistic meaning.

I was caught between him encouraging worship, or those around him encouraging it, or both. Did he encourage followers to write texts of his life, which became some sort of canon? Did he encourage the populace not to worship him altogether, but instead to respect his authority, as well as the authority of his heirs (and tell the populace to "worship the moon")? Did he know the area of his death would swell with followers only a decade after he passed?

Remember the absolute rarity of written texts about a god-man during or even shortly after their lifetimes. Of the eastern religions, I know Gautama’s life wasn’t recorded for around 400 years after his death. In Greco-Roman religions, Apollonius didn’t have a life until 100 years passed (granted, Life of Apollonius did claim to use earlier written sources such as one by Apollonius’ disciple Damis, which is currently unknown outside the claim to be used by Life). The more familiar Jesus didn’t have written stories until ~40 years after his death. Autobiographies don’t come around until ~300 CE. Of course you can change literary history as this world has no connection with our more familiar world, but these things do suggest that it is at the very least unlikely for there to be written documents of a religious nature (as opposed to oral stories or say political decrees) about the Emperor so soon after his death.

[Starlife]

Originally Posted by The Strategos

Really? I completely did not get that from what you described. I’ll just leave it with saying, eww.

Can you elaborate on your dissatisfaction? "Monotheism" is not limited to Judeo-Christian ideals. I consider Hinduism to be monotheistic in more ways than one; while that religion has a plethora of deities, it is said that they are all manifestations of a single one. I hope that, perhaps, what I am trying to create here can be viewed in a similar way (but of course, not entirely synonymous).

Luysesanor was meant to be monotheistic, in that its belief set is allied to a single, unifying force (abstractly, the light of the jade moon and the personification of that satellite -- and the fertility and guidance it brings; more literally, the worship of a god-king [will it last?]). Yet I have intentionally left things open-ended, so as to encourage worldbuilding from players eager to define the nuances. There is Ekudhism, which has not been described (I'm having time restraints at the moment), and there will be native religions that Alyusians might find useful in more ways than one (in adding to their overall mythos; perhaps this could come in the guise as nature locale-worship, not unlike what the Alyusians once adhered to in Uedos, though more akin to Shintoism than animalism or druidic beliefs). I wouldn't label things so easily, for even though Luysesanor at its core advocates the worship of a single god-king and his blood, there is a lot of room for "polytheism" to develop, as well. Again, I'm even hesitant to label Luysesanor in the first place, for the religion itself is young and lacks clear-cut definitions -- that, I felt, would be an interesting realm for players to toy within. Is a god's blood a god as well? Does he deserve to rule and be worshiped? In fact, I really need to describe the real history of the migration, which was a lot more violent than it may seem at the moment. There must be some political undertones, seemingly glossed over by sparkly religious overtones.

What my original point means to declare is that the "saints" are not meant to be deities in the same fashion that Luseysi is considered one.

I thought that this religion was polytheistic and assumed that it had the same character as virtually all polytheistic religions (in the west) in that ethics and religion were divorced. You can see, therefore, how as I was assuming ethics and religion were naturally divorced I would disagree with a term that is so heavily invested with moralistic meaning.

Who said anything about this being synonymous with "the west", any way? I'm not trying to lump religious ideals into cookie cutter Earth-like ideals or place them in RL geographic boundaries (though I would like some semblance of familiarity, at least conceptually). And beyond the west, ethics and religion are very much linked in polytheistic religions. I could list dozens of Bodhisattva and recite Vedas for you, but I'm sure you are already familiar with them.

Remember the absolute rarity of written texts about a god-man during or even shortly after their lifetimes. Of the eastern religions, I know Gautama’s life wasn’t recorded for around 400 years after his death. In Greco-Roman religions, Apollonius didn’t have a life until 100 years passed (granted, Life of Apollonius did claim to use earlier written sources such as one by Apollonius’ disciple Damis, which is currently unknown outside the claim to be used by Life). The more familiar Jesus didn’t have written stories until ~40 years after his death. Autobiographies don’t come around until ~300 CE. Of course you can change literary history as this world has no connection with our more familiar world, but these things do suggest that it is at the very least unlikely for there to be written documents of a religious nature (as opposed to oral stories or say political decrees) about the Emperor so soon after his death.

Excellent point. Then, would it not make sense for players to create their own orders from scratch, complete with written texts woven together with oral histories and given potential political agendas? I suppose I could come up with everything, and start us out further on, but it might be interesting if we can develop this from the onset, in-game. Though I'd also be more than willing to begin 100 years after Luseysi's death.

[Terrance888]

Spoiler for Spoilered Just in Case:

Luysesanor was meant to be monotheistic, in that its belief set is allied to a single, unifying force (abstractly, the light of the jade moon and the personification of that satellite -- and the fertility and guidance it brings; more literally, the worship of a god-king [will it last?]). Yet I have intentionally left things open-ended, so as to encourage worldbuilding from players eager to define the nuances.

I like this idea of multiple interpretations of the same faith which will develop through the "pre-medieval" era of the NES. On a more general note, [bear with me here], possibly Luseysi claims that he and his descendents would be the physical avatars of the Jade Moon and thus deserving of worship? I would think this the second most common claim of holiness (the first, I guess, is to claim to be descendant of a god... maybe this is more likely seeing their concern about bloodlines?)

A possible idea is that he was born (or even better,said, to be born ,but no one is sure) during an Eclipse (I don't know if Lunar or Solar would be better...) to represent some sort of mystical origin. Maybe this would be an idea they added in after his death to make him even more important, while others argue that he recieved the blessings of the Jade Moon later in life?

Another possibility is that he himself never claimed anything by himself, but his deeds are so great that people just... started a personality cult that grew over the migration. Single-handedly defeating tribes, fording rivers, saving lives, offering wisdom ect. There is a lot of possibilities for him to notice later on and decide to just live with it. Defeating a tribe becomes defeating a hydra. Fording rivers becomes killing a river serpent. Saving a life becomes saving an entire clan with his bare arms, and offering short words of wisdom becomes great sermons about the meaning of life...

Excellent point. Then, would it not make sense for players to create their own orders from scratch, complete with written texts woven together with oral histories and given potential political agendas? I suppose I could come up with everything, and start us out further on, but it might be interesting if we can develop this from the onset, in-game. Though I'd also be more than willing to begin 100 years after Luseysi's death.

A good idea is to ask every one to donate a piece of text about X event, and leave it rather general to allow creative juices flow. Say, do this once every turn during the pre-medieval updates. You take the texts you got (and they will be very varied) and pick the "best", but add elements from other stories in. Perhaps pick another divergent story and make a stand alone secondary verse. Example would be "What is his last Sermon at the Pale City?" and then weaving together each of our's personal tales into a single, generally agreed but wildly interpreted text.

Another is to simply allow us to write text after confirming with you, and have a Council of Nicea-type event some time where they will declare some holy and others heretical, or some form of that, presided by the Then-Emperor if that blood line still survives and the priests.

[Starlife]

Originally Posted by Terrance888

Defeating a tribe becomes defeating a hydra. Fording rivers becomes killing a river serpent. Saving a life becomes saving an entire clan with his bare arms, and offering short words of wisdom becomes great sermons about the meaning of life...

Actually, the migration realistically was quite a bloody and arduous affair. I was thinking that Luseysi was as cunning as he was supposedly godlike and mystical. I was thinking that the migration was a dark, dirty affair, in which Luseysi essentially unified a group of people only to massacre another. It might even be interesting for that group to exist as a shadow somewhere, an idea somewhat implied to me by Thlayli and bombshoo (the anti-Luseysi, essentially). Perhaps in the initial stages of the migration, things were so difficult that women smothered their children and warfare over even the smallest bit of food was commonplace. I've greatly "whitewashed" the history of the migration in the OP.

More to the point: it would make sense for that history to be whitewashed, or at least told so that Luseysi is framed in a positive light (even though he might have been entirely vicious, he had to do what he had to do, etc.).

[Thlayli]

What sort of supernatural feats did Luseysi accomplish that would really justify his cultic worship? You know, something that sets him apart from an Alexander the Great/William the Conqueror type figure.