The Netherlands (pre-release thread)

[Lyoncet]

Originally Posted by Bakspatel

You can also exchange its last resource for your last resource. That usually works out pretty well, and I've done it before to gain some influence of CS.

Really? My experience has always been that the AI values my last resource as any other resource, but values its own last resource very highly. Either way, I'd say my overarching point of East India <<<< Bazaar still stands since some people were drawing or asking about that comparison. Since with a Bazaar in that same situation you wouldn't be trading away your last copy in the first place.

[RealHuhn]

Originally Posted by Lyoncet

Really? My experience has always been that the AI values my last resource as any other resource, but values its own last resource very highly. Either way, I'd say my overarching point of East India <<<< Bazaar still stands since some people were drawing or asking about that comparison. Since with a Bazaar in that same situation you wouldn't be trading away your last copy in the first place.

You forget that East India is available from the start of the game. That alone makes it better than Bazaars.

In the early game, you can either sell more luxuries than other civs and get huge amounts of cash or trade for even more happiness than usual, expand like crazy and have easy access to the "we love the king" days (+25% growth in that city!!!).

As soon as bazaars are available, they are better of course, but that's only compared to Arabia. Overall, the dutch ability remains very useful throughout the game and again, it has the potential to guarantee you a huge kick-start.

[Bakspatel]

Originally Posted by Lyoncet

Really? My experience has always been that the AI values my last resource as any other resource, but values its own last resource very highly. Either way, I'd say my overarching point of East India <<<< Bazaar still stands since some people were drawing or asking about that comparison. Since with a Bazaar in that same situation you wouldn't be trading away your last copy in the first place.

You are right about the value they put on their last resource, its not uncommon that they ask 3 of your luxuries and some strategic resources for their single luxury. Though I do not try it very often, I have been able to trade their last resource for my last resource. I do not know the requirements of diplomatic influence you must have on them, but I'm guessing that you would need a really good connection with them to be able to do this. But they should make the AI far less demanding at that point.

[Babri]

Originally Posted by RealHuhn

You forget that East India is available from the start of the game. That alone makes it better than Bazaars.

In the early game, you can either sell more luxuries than other civs and get huge amounts of cash or trade for even more happiness than usual, expand like crazy and have easy access to the "we love the king" days (+25% growth in that city!!!).

As soon as bazaars are available, they are better of course, but that's only compared to Arabia. Overall, the dutch ability remains very useful throughout the game and again, it has the potential to guarantee you a huge kick-start.

• U don't have any luxury on turn 1 nor u can improve them until u research the required tech.
• AI doesn't have huge amount of gold very early in the game so the boost kicks in a bit later.
• U won't really get that much excess happiness as Dutch early on, only extra gold because AI never sell its last copy of luxury at a fair price & the chance that AI having 2 copies of luxuries available is not as high as some people are thinking. Most of the time u might only have 2-4 happiness advantage early on.
• Many people here are suggesting to expand crazy as Dutch because they have happiness/gold surplus. However just like Austria they are forgetting that Dutch have no UU or UA which will help them defending their overly expanded territory.
• Once Bazar kicks in they are >>>>>>>>> Dutch UA. If u own 3 cotton, with bazar u can sell 5 of them + retain 4 hapiness. As Dutch u can only sell 3 of them & only regain 2 happiness. Also the point that bazar comes late & u have to construct it in a city is moot because u are going to construct markets/bazar in almost every single city because of the gold bonuses they give.

[Montov]

Originally Posted by Babri

[LIST][*]Many people here are suggesting to expand crazy as Dutch because they have happiness/gold surplus. However just like Austria they are forgetting that Dutch have no UU or UA which will help them defending their overly expanded territory.

Any unit will do.
But like already mentioned in this thread, the ability could be quite strong for small empires: in such a scenario you don't have a lot of abundant resources, and happiness is usually not a big issue. So you can trade your luxuries away and the small decrease in happiness doesn't have a big impact.

[Babri]

Originally Posted by Montov

Any unit will do.
But like already mentioned in this thread, the ability could be quite strong for small empires: in such a scenario you don't have a lot of abundant resources, and happiness is usually not a big issue. So you can trade your luxuries away and the small decrease in happiness doesn't have a big impact.

Yes tall empire for Dutch is more suitable, their UI can also boost growth a lot if placed on flood plains. Still I feel that they are quite lacking as most probably polders is not going to provide tulips.
Ship UUs are already fairly useless, things may change with G&K but I still think they might not be as strong so buffing their UA by adding another trait to it would be most logical.

[CYZ]

Isn't the martket/bazaar being placed later in the tech tree?

This would increase the Dutch advantage,


Also, how usefull the Dutch UA is depends completely on how trading with the AI is going to work out. If they're going to be eager to trade it will be awesome. If not, well...

[Lyoncet]

Originally Posted by RealHuhn

You forget that East India is available from the start of the game. That alone makes it better than Bazaars.

No I didn't. I mentioned it several times a few posts back, along with all the ways that, IMO, Bazaar is still better. Currency's a pretty early tech, and markets are high priority because by that point you're close to being in the red if not there already. Getting an extra 4-16 happiness or 240-960 gold very early is still much better than getting an extra 2 happiness on turn 30, and another 2 on turn 40, and another 2 on turn 45 (for example) because at that point it's often hard to maximize value from trades (no one has many goods yet) and happiness probably isn't a big issue yet. An issue, but not a a huge hindrance. Plus this usually won't even happen anyways because resources tend to cluster and you get a max 2 happiness per resource type.

So I'd say no, coming online earlier doesn't make it anywhere near better. Most of that extra time it's not doing much, and that brief period after it does but Bazaars wouldn't be foesn't make up for the many relative weaknesses.

[GenjiKhan]

I'm bet that Polders should give Tulips . Tulips are the only thing that can balance the disavantage that the "East Indian Company" UA have when compared to Bazaars .

[Babri]

Originally Posted by GenjiKhan

I'm bet that Polders should give Tulips . Tulips are the only thing that can balance the disavantage that the "East Indian Company" UA have when compared to Bazaars .

I hope that but it seems like Firaxis doesn't always consider balancing stuff at release. Also since polders will be buildable on flood plains there could literally be 20-25 tulips if u own some flood plain cities.

[Heinage]

Originally Posted by Babri

I hope that but it seems like Firaxis doesn't always consider balancing stuff at release. Also since polders will be buildable on flood plains there could literally be 20-25 tulips if u own some flood plain cities.

...

Originally Posted by Heinage

...And the most tulips you will ever have is equal to the amount of players in a game because any more than that is excess luxuries that you can't trade. There won't be many times you can trade with everyone in the game at the same time anyway due to diplomatic factors...

...so what's the point of having 20-25 tulips if you have, for example, 11 players in a game? In that example, having 11 tulips or 20-25 tulips makes no difference whatsoever. Once you have enough to trade with everyone, that's the most you'll ever need.

And to semi-finish off my own quote...

Originally Posted by Heinage

...And the point of the Dutch, if anything, is that they should be able to get the most out of trade than any other Civ. IMO, it's not too much to be able to trade tulips to each Civ in the game (if you have enough marshes/floodplains), and in fact, if this is limited (as well as the UA), then they'll be bland, almost non-unique...

A UI that gives 1 extra food on marshes and floodplains would be severely under-powered, un-inspiring, not very unique (in terms of wow-factor), weak in comparison to the other UIs (terrace farms extra food for EACH mountain bordering it, Moai statues up to 3 or 4 culture per tile depending on placement (but usually 2 or 3)).
All in all, if you look at the overall Dutch package as it seems to be right now, they need the tulips...and deserve to have them.

EDIT: sorry guys, I'm having difficulty keeping my nationalism in check. I said once before that I would stop the whinging about how under-powered the Dutch look (at this stage), but can't seem to control myself every time I see this thread rise to the top. Will try toning it down again

[Babri]

Originally Posted by Heinage

...
A UI that gives 1 extra food on marshes and floodplains would be severely under-powered, un-inspiring, not very unique (in terms of wow-factor), weak in comparison to the other UIs (terrace farms extra food for EACH mountain bordering it, Moai statues up to 3 or 4 culture per tile depending on placement (but usually 2 or 3)).
All in all, if you look at the overall Dutch package as it seems to be right now, they need the tulips...and deserve to have them.

It is 3 food NOT 1 food which could be quite useful, I agree though it lacks flavour & overall Dutch are going to be a weak civ without tulips.

[Heinage]

Oh, 3 food is quite a lot. Hmm, I don't know then... but thanks for agreeing on the lack of flavor without tulips I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
In the meantime, I hope they beat Denmark in the upcoming euro 2012 match!!

[Montov]

Originally Posted by Babri

It is 3 food NOT 1 food which could be quite useful, I agree though it lacks flavour & overall Dutch are going to be a weak civ without tulips.

3 Food means 1 food more than a normal Farm after Civil Service.

[Babri]

Originally Posted by Montov

3 Food means 1 food more than a normal Farm after Civil Service.

Are u sure that polders won't improve with Civil Service ?

Originally Posted by Heinage

Oh, 3 food is quite a lot. Hmm, I don't know then... but thanks for agreeing on the lack of flavor without tulips I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
In the meantime, I hope they beat Denmark in the upcoming euro 2012 match!!

I can feel a lot of nationalism in ur post. Anyway I am not really worried about Dutch or any other civ being weak or OP. I am sure Thal will fix it as soon as he gets some time.

[apocalypse105]

I love the UA selling my cotton for a other luxury resource and get double happiness

[Camikaze]

Originally Posted by Babri

I hope that but it seems like Firaxis doesn't always consider balancing stuff at release.

Or more logically, they think it is balanced.

And I really don't get this 'the Dutch UA is weak!' school of thought. Getting to keep half the happiness is pretty massive, particularly in the early game, when the benefits you get from the extra gold will compound over time.

[Babri]

Originally Posted by Camikaze

Or more logically, they think it is balanced.

And I really don't get this 'the Dutch UA is weak!' school of thought. Getting to keep half the happiness is pretty massive, particularly in the early game, when the benefits you get from the extra gold will compound over time.

Compare it to bazar which not only lets u keep full happiness but u can also sell more luxuries. Dutch is most likely going to be a tall empire so it is not about happiness but gold. Dutch UA isn't bad but not good either to compensate for no land UU. Other civs such as Inca & Japan have great UAs which compensate for their weak UUs.

[Gucumatz]

Originally Posted by CYZ

Isn't the martket/bazaar being placed later in the tech tree?

This would increase the Dutch advantage,


Also, how usefull the Dutch UA is depends completely on how trading with the AI is going to work out. If they're going to be eager to trade it will be awesome. If not, well...

Nope, its being moved up earlier than before as seen in the German vids.

[Camikaze]

Originally Posted by Babri

Compare it to bazar

Which doesn't come at the beginning of the game, but must be built in each city for the effect. Again, early gold. The Bazaar doesn't provide it, the Dutch UA will.