Unfair (to AI) start options

[azcore]

I've just started to play this great mod and while it has many gameplay improvements over vanilla, it bothers me if AI can use all of that improvements.

For example, I think AI doesn't know anything about 'Surround and destroy' option and does not try to surround enemy, does it?

Also I am not sure how well AI uses Great Commanders if it uses them at all. I was playing with Barbarian Generals option and received great commander very early in the game. My power rating skyrocketed that turn (may be that is a oversight by the way, I don't think that generals should count so much toward power rating). Then after some turns several AI players received great commanders too, but in demographics I remained at the first place by power - with very small army - so I think all AI players used generals as XP boosters.

And what about raging barbarians - how well AI able to defend from them? I was playing on giant map with 25 civs and long before turn 200 five of AI civs was dead - I checked some of them and their capitals was raized, by neanderthals, I presume.

I am playing at emperor level right now and judging by score and demographics AIs are doing worse than me - and that is before using much of 'surround an destroy' method, which, I suspect, would be devastating to AI troops. I am not sure would it be better to raise difficulty level or switch off some options.

So - do aforementioned options make game easier for human players?
Are there some other options making life harder for AI?

[BlueGenie]

Difficulty level.
With so many good and nice things it's a lot easier for a human to utilize things right. The AI tends to not be able to use the various combinations to good effect and lags behind a little due to that. Increasing the difficulty to ~2 levels higher than you usually play Civ on is recommended in C2C, or at least 1 level higher.

Neanderthals don't generally raze cities as they have -75% city attack modifier. Did you start as Minor Civ? A few could have died due to that. Barbs might have gotten a Hero too, which could account for a few. Generally AI's should be able to survive though, almost always do in my games, but then I do tend to play at Deity too, which gives the AI a bonus vs barbs as well as being able to build units faster.
Other than that Raging Barbarians shouldn't impact the AI much, if at all.
Oh, and Start as Minor should be fixed as well in the current version. AI bogged down with too many units before with it.

But you are right, surround and destroy option favours the human players, and the strategy behind Great Generals is hard for the AI to grasp. Sure, it's used some that I've seen but it doesn't know to search for and get easy XP to have it boosted and ready to go when needed, nor where and when to place it for good usage.

An option you want to have checked is Assimilation. That way you can capture other nations base Culture and use it to get their Culture wonders too.

Cheers

[Thunderbrd]

I'm working on trying to understand the way the ai strategizes in battle and eventually should be able to address the surround and destroy factor.

[Necratoid]

Check the AI's use of barbarian neandersthalls code... those things have -75% to city attack because the abuse S&D to a disturbing level. Before that they tended to beat entire contients to early deaths.

Also, if you think the AI's are getting crushed too frequently by raging barbs... add more AI players to start with. The system can take up to 50 at the start. Granted I wouldn't do that many without a good computer and a fairly large map. It does make the game more intresting with more AIs. Lots of settlerless cities to grab once the sizes start hitting 2 or more, dots a few random ruins on the map for treasure bonuses, and pretty much predestines that your going to get some opponents somewhere that can keep up with you together or alone.

[azcore]

Originally Posted by BlueGenie

Difficulty level.
With so many good and nice things it's a lot easier for a human to utilize things right. The AI tends to not be able to use the various combinations to good effect and lags behind a little due to that. Increasing the difficulty to ~2 levels higher than you usually play Civ on is recommended in C2C, or at least 1 level higher.

Good to know, I will try Immortal then.

Neanderthals don't generally raze cities as they have -75% city attack modifier. Did you start as Minor Civ? A few could have died due to that.

Yes, I did start as minor. And I have analyzed defeat of one AI by going back in autosaves. It was strange. Maori have taken spanish capital with only one clubman (cause it was defended only by stone thrower) while 4 spanish clubmen was standing around doing nothing. There was no some unit per tile limit, so it's really weird why they weren't defending their capital. Screenshot attached (hm, is there a way to place attached picture inside of post? http://forums.civfanatics.com/images...s/confused.gif ). And second unit in maori stack is gatherer by the way - why do they take gatherer far away from their home? And why they razed city instead of keeping to themselves?
Should I report all that in bug thread or that is known behaviour?

Oh, and Start as Minor should be fixed as well in the current version. AI bogged down with too many units before with it.

Is it completely safe now? Wonder if it would be better with or without it.

But you are right, surround and destroy option favours the human players, and the strategy behind Great Generals is hard for the AI to grasp.

May be there are other options that I am unaware of which favours human against AI?

An option you want to have checked is Assimilation. That way you can capture other nations base Culture and use it to get their Culture wonders too.

Yes, that one is on, I think AI shouldn't have any troubles with it.

Thanks for your answers!

[azcore]

Originally Posted by Thunderbrd

I'm working on trying to understand the way the ai strategizes in battle and eventually should be able to address the surround and destroy factor.

That would be great. Such potential in this option, but without AI code to handle it, it's cheating against already mentally ill AI.

[azcore]

Originally Posted by Necratoid

Also, if you think the AI's are getting crushed too frequently by raging barbs... add more AI players to start with. The system can take up to 50 at the start.

For now I am using 25 players for second largest map size, default setting are too low for my taste.

Lots of settlerless cities to grab once the sizes start hitting 2 or more,

I fear that with too many players there wouldn't be wild animals to hunt and I kinda like all that hunting mechanics.

dots a few random ruins on the map for treasure bonuses.

Hm, what are treasure bonuses?

[Sgtslick]

great commanders favor human player ALOT. I used to play monarch in vanilla and sometimes emperor. In c2c i play immortal and i've edited the handicap.xml to increase there tech bonus even more. (should give you a benchmark).

Have you tried the GEM map for c2c its great? http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=457501

If your worried about surround and destroy just turn it off, i usually have it off. Also I wouldn't recommend raging barbs on anything less than immortal i don't think coz you want AI to get a nice bonus to barbs. Don't select aggressive AI i don't think coz you don't want the ai to go bat crazy making units (which they often do even when you don't select this option). Don't encourage them to spam units.

Don't abuse diplomacy such as military unit trading should be a no no etc

Revolutions option can be tough on higher difficulty you might wanna try that.

[azcore]

Originally Posted by Sgtslick

great commanders favor human player ALOT. I used to play monarch in vanilla and sometimes emperor. In c2c i play immortal and i've edited the handicap.xml to increase there tech bonus even more. (should give you a benchmark).

Ok, I will try immortal and will switch off commanders and surround.

Have you tried the GEM map for c2c its great?

I've checked it and it's too crowded in europe while there is too many empty space in russia. More even distribution would be great although ahistorical.

Don't select aggressive AI i don't think coz you don't want the ai to go bat crazy making units (which they often do even when you don't select this option). Don't encourage them to spam units.

But wouldn't AI be to passive without that option? I like when it actively tries to attack. And what about Ruthless AI? Description says it is step up from Agressive. Is it good? Does it require Agressive to work?

Don't abuse diplomacy such as military unit trading should be a no no etc

Revolutions option can be tough on higher difficulty you might wanna try that.

Thanks, that was helpful.

[Sgtslick]

Originally Posted by azcore

I've checked it and it's too crowded in europe while there is too many empty space in russia. More even distribution would be great although ahistorical.

Why don't you just edit it with worldbuilder once you start the game? Up to u tho of course, but since your playing gigantic anyway you might aswell use it coz alot of works gone into it.

Originally Posted by azcore

But wouldn't AI be to passive without that option? I like when it actively tries to attack. And what about Ruthless AI? Description says it is step up from Agressive. Is it good? Does it require Agressive to work?

I've never used ruthless, it sounds stupid to me, pretty sure it increases the likelihood of ai backstabbing you. Also you should find that the AI generally won't be passive (especially on immortal), I find them to be too aggressive and put too much of an emphasis on garbage units especially early. So for this reason i wouldn't recommend aggressive ai option.

[azcore]

Originally Posted by Sgtslick

Why don't you just edit it with worldbuilder once you start the game? Up to u tho of course, but since your playing gigantic anyway you might aswell use it coz alot of works gone into it.

I like to explore map, playing without knowing which resources are near etc. And by using worldbuilder I will know all that.
Right now I am playing on c2c-terra - I like idea of barbarian new world and old world for all players to start and 'perfect' map scripts which also have oldworld option generated too alien continent shapes for my tastes.

I've never used ruthless, it sounds stupid to me, pretty sure it increases the likelihood of ai backstabbing you.

Yeah, I am to not very excited by backstabbing as in simply breaking peace unexpectedly. But I was lured by that description: "The Ruthless AI Gameoption will make the AI much more manipulative and harder to beat than normal or Aggressive AI. The AI will use techs and gold to hire war allies, often sparking small border disputes into raging world wars that ultimately will work to their advantage. Expect to be sneak attacked, or worse, blitzed, as the AI siezes poorly defended border cities, and gobbles up smaller city-states. The AI will remember your breaches of trust more keenly; it may be wiser to die an honorable death then become the next Benedict Arnold. Lastly; suspect every AI request; an ordinary map request may actually be a search for future attack sites, so be prepared for pre-emptive strikes."

Sounds good to me.

[azcore]

Found detailed description of ruthless AI: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=354203

It's much more than backstabbing, but it' also auto-enables Agressive, so I am in doubt right now if I would enable it on new game.

[Sgtslick]

cool that does actually sound pretty good.

[Necratoid]

I'm sorry... did you actually complain that you found it historically inaccurate that Europe had lots Civs and Siberia had few Civs populating it?

Also, barb Civ land spawn animals... If you want better animals spawns play with realistic culture spread enabled and/or a custom map and/or raging barbs and/or a longer game setting. etc... ect...

The realistic culture spread and not starting in and old world map will help with that a lot.

[BlueGenie]

During Prehistoric I disable barbarian spawns and barb city spawns. As I see it during that time everyone is a barbarian anyway, especially when using Start as Minor option. That means there's more space and more animals instead.

Cheers

[strategyonly]

Originally Posted by BlueGenie

Barbs might have gotten a Hero too, which could account for a few. Cheers

I thought i disabled all the Heroes for the Barbarian Civs, only AI should be able to use them.

[BlueGenie]

I got a message now and then about barbs creating a hero unit. I don't remember which one it was though.
There, "4140 BC: Barbarians have created Cunhambebe!".

Cheers

[strategyonly]

Originally Posted by BlueGenie

I got a message now and then about barbs creating a hero unit. I don't remember which one it was though.
There, "4140 BC: Barbarians have created Cunhambebe!".

Cheers

Dang, i forgot to add the ones ls612 added, nice catch.