Modern/Industrial Slavery

[Archon_Wing]

So I hear Slavery benefits from production modifiers, and that in combination with Kremlin and Bio sounds crazy if you find a way to get around emancipation unhappiness. So how often does anyone use it?

[shakabrade]

Not often enough since it is really powerful.
If you build/capture Mids, you have +25% for Police state, +25% for forge, and +33% for Kremlin I believe. Pretty powerful, and even more with Biology. And if you play with Aztec, Oh my, free units. Just don't forget to build granary

Emancipation unhappiness in these situations is usually dealt by acquiring vassals, which isn't really hard with all the mentioned stuff

I'd also like to say that I haven't been in emancipation for at least 10 last games, so I guess it isn't such a big deal. Just finished game with 8 emancipation unhappines and never switched to anything besides slavery and caste. By the time emacipation kicks in, you can trade for many resources, and usually already have vassal or two. Not all cities have to be big. You just want cities to work the best tiles (3 or more ), and whip the rest if you already go that way, and with the settings above, you do.

[Quibblesome]

How does getting vassals help with unhappys?

[shakabrade]

You get +1 for each vassal. It says: We influence other civilizations!, or something like that.

[Quibblesome]

Thanks! I never knew that. Although I guess you never get a positive in a formerly held city from the vassal (we yearn to join our motherland).

[Lemon Merchant]

Originally Posted by shakabrade

Not often enough since it is really powerful.
If you build/capture Mids, you have +25% for Police state, +25% for forge, and +33% for Kremlin I believe. Pretty powerful, and even more with Biology. And if you play with Aztec, Oh my, free units. Just don't forget to build granary <snip>

(Emphasis mine.)

I thought that capturing a wonder only gave you the culture from that wonder, not its' effects. Have I been wrong all of this time?

[jordiflor]

Originally Posted by Lemon Merchant

I thought that capturing a wonder only gave you the culture from that wonder, not its' effects. Have I been wrong all of this time?

It's just the opposite . You get the special wonder effects, but not its culture.

[lymond]

Originally Posted by Lemon Merchant

I thought that capturing a wonder only gave you the culture from that wonder, not its' effects. Have I been wrong all of this time?

Lemon! Lemon! C'mon, girl!

Main reason I rarely build wonders

[civac]

Does someone know how the Emancipation unhappiness is calculated? In my experience it's usually too much to bear. I often play a cottage heavy style and still have difficulties with happiness even without emancipation unhappiness. I imagine it's even worse when using a farm/specialist economy.

[lymond]

^^^ I don't know the technical "code-diving" answer, but think it is combination of how many opponents adopt Emanc and the size of the city.

So many methods exist to curb unhappiness. I often don't run Emanc in many of my games that actually go that far into the game. Make sure you trade for every happy resource you can. Tons of building give innate happiness or bonus happiness for certain resources. Things like Forges are a must build for me anyway. Markets often come with a nice happy bonus. However, the best way late game to stave off unhappiness is whip or rush buy theatres and coliseums. Just raising your culture slider 1 or 2 notches really helps. The loss of beakers or gold due to the culture slider is often offset by a) the fact that citizens won't be unproductive b) you can build wealth and research, which I do a lot of anyway by that point.

And you always have Hereditary rule to fall back on.

[Ghpstage]

To deal with emancipation happiness when not running cottages I usually make use of the culture slider, after all if your working mostly farms or workshops then you can run specialists or build research/wealth, which is likely where a large proportion of your science is coming from anyway.

Originally Posted by shakabrade

Not often enough since it is really powerful.
If you build/capture Mids, you have +25% for Police state, +25% for forge, and +33% for Kremlin I believe. Pretty powerful, and even more with Biology. And if you play with Aztec, Oh my, free units. Just don't forget to build granary

Theres also factories and power as well as sushi available in the later game.
Also kremlin doesn't add a 33% bonus to from a whip, it decreases the pop cost of whipping by 33%.
In practice this increases the base hammers per pop by 50%, on normal that means jumping from 30/pop to 45/pop, and being base this boost is affected by production modifiers. So basically, yeah its pretty strong.

[cain3456]

By the time emancipation unhappiness starts being a problem, slavery isn't that economical anyway. Slavery is powerful in the early game when you don't have an economy, but whipping for an extra 30 hammers when your cities are producing 60+ a turn is not productive.

[shakabrade]

Originally Posted by Ghpstage

To deal with emancipation happiness when not running cottages I usually make use of the culture slider, after all if your working mostly farms or workshops then you can run specialists or build research/wealth, which is likely where a large proportion of your science is coming from anyway.
Theres also factories and power as well as sushi available in the later game.
So basically, yeah its pretty strong.

But building factories and coal plants makes you lose many cavalries. I usually win by that time using this strategy of whipping. You also need to research Steam Power, Constitution, Corporation and Assembly Line, and that is very expensive for an empire with 100+ cavalry and low population because of whips.

If games goes into AL, the next thing I'll whip are tactical nukes.

Also kremlin doesn't add a 33% bonus to from a whip, it decreases the pop cost of whipping by 33%.
In practice this increases the base hammers per pop by 50%, on normal that means jumping from 30/pop to 45/pop, and being base this boost is affected by production modifiers.

Didn't know that. Thanks for the info.
Even stronger wonder.

[UnforcedError]

Originally Posted by Quibblesome

Thanks! I never knew that. Although I guess you never get a positive in a formerly held city from the vassal (we yearn to join our motherland).

You get the +1 for every vassal in captured citites as well.

Originally Posted by cain3456

By the time emancipation unhappiness starts being a problem, slavery isn't that economical anyway. Slavery is powerful in the early game when you don't have an economy, but whipping for an extra 30 hammers when your cities are producing 60+ a turn is not productive.

Exactly, although as stated earlier production modifier buildings (forges, factories, power, Ironworks) do affect whip hammers. (Does the Kremlin indeed affect whip hammers???) Whipping down a 10-11 pop city instead of letting it work 10-11 good tiles is bad, as it will take ages to grow back again. Besides at this point of the game you have access to State Property workshops meaning you can turn some cities into 1t late-game unit pumps. A good HE city will actually have constant overflow as long as you don't build a building. (Or you're a corp fan so you probably have Mining Inc.) Rush-buying with the Kremlin is actually better at this point, because you (presumably) don't need to rush as often as in the early game.

EDIT: Just WB tested it, and the Kremlin seems to affect whipping as well. Thanks a lot for the info (This just shows that I never use Kremlin with Slavery ) What a broken wonder. I'll still have to run the numbers on pop growth vs whipping effect for higher pop cities though.

[reddishrecue]

Rival civilizations in emancipation and unhappiness from slavery are reasons why it wouldn't be that often for me to use slavery in the modern/industrial eras.

[Tlalynet]

Any spiritual leader makes good use of late slavery. State property\Vassalage\Slavery\Serfdom\Theocracy lets you do a nice 5 turn warwhip. Happiness isn't an issue thanks to whipping and you can revert to emancipation\whatever once the warwhip is done.

Take nationalism for even more units, though in most cases if you're going to warwhip you want full XP and units you can't draft.

You can also jump into slavery to finish buildings in marginal towns.

[Pisskop]

Originally Posted by Tlalynet

Any spiritual leader makes good use of late slavery. State property\Vassalage\Slavery\Serfdom\Theocracy lets you do a nice 5 turn warwhip. Happiness isn't an issue thanks to whipping and you can revert to emancipation\whatever once the warwhip is done.

Take nationalism for even more units, though in most cases if you're going to warwhip you want full XP and units you can't draft.

You can also jump into slavery to finish buildings in marginal towns.

Heeh, have I been wasting my potential.

[Antilogic]

Originally Posted by UnforcedError

You get the +1 for every vassal in captured citites as well.

He's saying the +1 happiness for having vassals is counteracted by the "we yearn to join the motherland" penalty.

Originally Posted by Tlalynet

Any spiritual leader makes good use of late slavery. State property\Vassalage\Slavery\Serfdom\Theocracy lets you do a nice 5 turn warwhip. Happiness isn't an issue thanks to whipping and you can revert to emancipation\whatever once the warwhip is done.

Take nationalism for even more units, though in most cases if you're going to warwhip you want full XP and units you can't draft.

You can also jump into slavery to finish buildings in marginal towns.

And this is why I say Spiritual is one of the stronger traits in the game. The more you plan and exploit quick civics changes, the better.

[UnforcedError]

Originally Posted by Antilogic

He's saying the +1 happiness for having vassals is counteracted by the "we yearn to join the motherland" penalty.

Yes I got that, but thanks nevertheless I just hinted he could balance it out by having enough vassals

Originally Posted by Antilogic

And this is why I say Spiritual is one of the stronger traits in the game. The more you plan and exploit quick civics changes, the better.

I second that.

[lymond]

Spiritual is indeed an underrated trait.