getting beat on the land grab

[Abegweit]

Originally Posted by s.bernbaum

I thought I saw a Terrace in Cuzco but I did not notice whether or not there was a lighthouse. I'll have to look again. However, given that you are correct, the city is still good enough to crank out those three more settlers now before China grabs some of those sites and then add the needed buildings.

I agree about the road, I did not pay attention to that when I was looking at the save.

Agreed. Expansion takes priority. FYI, Cuzco is currently building a Terrace and does not have a lighthouse. However, there is no point in a Terrace if the city is to next be building a settler, since it won't be growing at that point. It is almost never right to build a granary in the capital until the land grab is over.

In fact, all three builds should be switched to workers/settlers immediately. The worst build actually is the one no one mentioned - the courthouse. Do not build a courthouse until maintenance reaches about 6 GPT. Actually I doubt it can ever be right on settler. Maybe.

[UnforcedError]

Originally Posted by Abegweit

Agreed. Expansion takes priority. FYI, Cuzco is currently building a Terrace and does not have a lighthouse. However, there is no point in a Terrace if the city is to next be building a settler, since it won't be growing at that point. It is almost never right to build a granary in the capital until the land grab is over.

It's not that difficult to expand on chieftain and the two other cities have tons of forests so they can build settlers too, while Cuzco also has to build galleys. Besides, a lighthouse will also give extra hammers to future workers / settlers.

[Abegweit]

Even better, why don't you build a factory before expansion?

[UnforcedError]

Originally Posted by Abegweit

Even better, why don't you build a factory before expansion?

Factories would help with slaving too, but a terrace and a lighthouse are enough for starters. It's not the terrace and the lighthouse that hurts expansion it's the completely useless ToA and the almost completely useless Stonehenge the OP built before settling other cities. Besides, he started off with teching Poly instead of going for AH or Fishing so presumably Cuzco didn't grow too much in the early stages. (Yes, Capac is probably the only leader who can get away with going for an early religion even on Deity, but that does not mean it's the optimal strategy. And that tactic would involve stealing AI workers and taking AI cities with your quechuas which the OP is apparently averse of doing.)

[Abegweit]

Look. The game, like life, is all about setting priorities. The priority right now is expansion. The Terrace is worthless for that and the lighthouse gives a grand total of one fpt, e.g. basically nothing.

You are right that the Terrace would be good for whipping but OP has said he doesn't want to do that. In any case, if you whip, you whip a Settler and then grow on the Terrace - not the other way around.

Edit: there's a long edit in the previous post (e.g. everything after the first sentence). I agree with all of it. I personally like SH and build it a lot but it certainly makes no sense when playing the Incas.

[TheWilltoAct]

Let's all take a breath and let the OP do the same.

[UnforcedError]

Originally Posted by Abegweit

I personally like SH and build it a lot but it certainly makes no sense when playing the Incas.

That's really up to personal preference I guess. On Immortal (my general level) SH goes so quickly that I usually have no chance for building it (other than 1-2 turns for failgold) without hurting my expansion way too much. Playing a CHAR leader I'd be tempted but even then with SH you're almost guaranteed to get a Great Priest (I don't think you can get to Writing and chop out a library in another city quickly enough) which I don't want. It's easier with the Oracle since by then you'd probably have Writing already (or oracle MC for a forge-engineer).

[Abegweit]

Originally Posted by UnforcedError

That's really up to personal preference I guess. On Immortal (my general level) SH goes so quickly that I usually have no chance for building it (other than 1-2 turns for failgold) without hurting my expansion way too much. Playing a CHAR leader I'd be tempted but even then with SH you're almost guaranteed to get a Great Priest (I don't think you can get to Writing and chop out a library in another city quickly enough) which I don't want. It's easier with the Oracle since by then you'd probably have Writing already (or oracle MC for a forge-engineer).

Immortal is my normal level too. I often get the SH on this level. I don't go looking for it but it's useful for growing the capital. Combine that with CHAR or a lot of land to grow into and it's a nice wonder. If you don't succeed, the failgold can be nice. And I assure you that it is easy to get a scientist before the priest. Very easy.

[Kneller]

I gotta say, I like this game way more than I thought I would. I'm used to playing more action-oriented games, but I'm finding thinky games to be more appealing. Side note, I think my version is a bit older than others, as I tried to load someone's modification of the previous save I posted and it gave me a "Cannot load version 302, expected version 301 or lower" error. I probably need to patch it, but I've been too lazy to do so.

Play the Terra map and make a beeline for Caravels

Is Terra the super large "Earthlike" map? I haven't played that one yet. I've mostly been playing tectonics (with 70% water), as I like the natural-looking transitions in the landscape.

Besides, overlapping fat crosses allow for tile sharing, the lesser distance will cost you less maintenance

Say what? You can have citizens from different towns working the same tile? Are you sure? Later in that game, I have a city overlapping the BFC of another, and if I choose to work one of the overlaping tiles in one city, it's shaded out in the other. Also, maintenance costs increase with distance between cities? I thought it was only if the city was overseas.

And you should road into Mao asap, as you're not getting any foreign trade routes.

That slipped my mind. I eventually did have a road there when one of his cities culture flipped to my civ. I built a road to the new city at that point. That reminds of me a question. Do you get more benefit from multiple roads in/out of a city. So, if I have city A roaded to city B roaded to city C, would it benefit me to have another road going from City C directly to A?

Anyway, I've since beat this game (space race), and started a new one with Gil (save posted below). None of the civ/leader features drew me to it; I've just always liked the Epic of Gilgamesh. However, I plan to play his strengths, and was really lucky on map generation in that regard. I have an entire continent to myself. With protective on top of that, I think I can hold my own, as long as I don't lag to0 far with military tech and put together a decent navy. Also, I acquired a worker, scout, and settler from villages. It's still early, so I'm cranking out workers and settlers to build up the cities. The barbs are cleared, and there's no way I need to worry about invasion at this point. I'm only planning on one more settler (for the SE peninsula) before I start working on my navy. Once I'm in the New World, it'll be time to make use of some spies, tech stealing, and zugs.

If you check the save. I already have a settler hanging out in the SW. After seeing the copper and silver right next to each other, I impulsively cranked him out to stake my claim. However, I have no idea where to place it. The place is all hills and barren of food sources by the mines. It could be a crazy production center, but how are they going to eat? I could go further north by the pigs, but it will take forever, if ever, for my cultural boundaries to reach far enough to get those resources. I could do a coastal city and fish for food, the best spot probably being either right where I am or maybe 1SW. But, then I'll have a lot of useless tundra in my BFC. Any thoughts? Thanks.

[Abegweit]

Originally Posted by Kneller

I gotta say, I like this game way more than I thought I would. I'm used to playing more action-oriented games, but I'm finding thinky games to be more appealing. Side note, I think my version is a bit older than others, as I tried to load someone's modification of the previous save I posted and it gave me a "Cannot load version 302, expected version 301 or lower" error. I probably need to patch it, but I've been too lazy to do so.

That's a small bug in K-mod. If you load the mod followed by the game, it works. If you try to load the game directly, you get that message.

Is Terra the super large "Earthlike" map? I haven't played that one yet. I've mostly been playing tectonics (with 70% water), as I like the natural-looking transitions in the landscape.

Yes, it is. The game generally plays like a normal size Pangaea. All the action is on the home continent.

Say what? You can have citizens from different towns working the same tile? Are you sure? Later in that game, I have a city overlapping the BFC of another, and if I choose to work one of the overlaping tiles in one city, it's shaded out in the other.

That's correct. However, it can be useful to use the tile in one city and then later in the other. That's what we mean when we talk about sharing tiles. The term is a bit ambiguous for sure.

Also, maintenance costs increase with distance between cities? I thought it was only if the city was overseas.

Maintenance costs increase with city size and distance from the capital. There is also a separate charge (colonial maintenance) for multiple cities on the same overseas island and continent. Distance costs are fixed and colonial maintenance disappears under State Property.

That slipped my mind. I eventually did have a road there when one of his cities culture flipped to my civ. I built a road to the new city at that point. That reminds of me a question. Do you get more benefit from multiple roads in/out of a city. So, if I have city A roaded to city B roaded to city C, would it benefit me to have another road going from City C directly to A?

No additional benefit other than providing an emergency route in case the first one is pillaged.

Comments on the game in a separate post.

[Abegweit]

I am confused. You have two cities and a settler. Yet your capital is still at size 1 and it's 2480BC. Did you find some of this stuff in goody huts or is this the normal build rate on chief? In any case, you need to let the city grow. The way to do that is to build workboats and corral the seafood. Also corral the cows. Food always always always comes first.

And cities need to have food. As I said earlier, every city needs at least one food resource and every food resource needs to have a city. You have six unclaimed food resources on this continent. Get them all.

Eridu is in a pretty bad spot since it has no food. And it definitely shouldn't be building Stonehenge. The purpose of SH is give a bit of culture to new cities so that they will expand borders when they are first founded. In the previous game, you had the Incan Terrace for that. In this one, you are Creative. You don't need it.

As for the Silver and Bronze, despite the lack of food a city might well go there one day because of the resources but not now. To acquire the resources, you need a worker to claim them and a road to your trade network. You have neither so it is completely useless. I'd go back to the Pigs and found a city there. It will never expand its borders to the resources but that's fine. It's a valuable location because it has food. Well, there is the issue that there is no worker to corral the Pigs and you don't know Animal Luvin' either. But aside from that...

[Pangaea]

I would recommend you try to play a game without building any wonders. They are not necessary, particularly when trying to learn the game.

Admittedly I'm not as knowledgeable as the other respondents in this thread, but remember that the main thing a city needs is access to food. Without that it won't be able to grow much, particularly on the type of maps you have with so much plains.

If continue on this map, settle at the pig area, and east of your capital up north where there is also food available. Settle along the NW coast too so that you get the food resources within your Big Fat Cross.

When you start a map you almost always want to start with a worker after settling the first city. Then grow the capital to size 2 or three. At that point it may be time to chop out a settler. Then make sure you settle the 2nd city with access to a food resource, either inland or at sea (the city can work tiles in a 5x5 square, where you cut off the corners, after the first cultural border expansion).

Make sure the first technology you reserach will help the first worker to get the food online. Starting techs may help here, but if not, research what you need.

[UnforcedError]

Congratulations on your Space Victory I can't check your save now as I'm at work but I'll have a look when I'm home. Also, as far as I can tell, Abegweit already answered all your questions pretty thoroughly.

I'd really recommend you take Pangea's advice and try a game without world wonders (or at least without the early ones). You don't need them to beat the game and they're only slowing you down, as you apparently cannot yet pick the right ones to suit your needs (don't worry, this takes some experience so it will come with time).

[Leathaface]

I took your save from post #29 and played a game with it, my play level is around Noble, i've won a couple of games at that level lately. Here are a couple of saves if you want to have a look at what I done:

from start to finish:

[Leathaface]

Plus what the other posters said, you need food or else all the mines in the world will be useless.

Double click your city name and your view will go above. See the tiles with the white rings around them? Those are the ones being worked on at present, when your city grows in size more tiles will be worked, ie more white rings added to the other tiles. Without food not all the tiles can be worked, if you've not surplus food then none at all.

3 food in a tile is a surplus of food, if you have 2 food in a tile that is not enough for growth. You need a surplus of food for your city to grow.

[Kneller]

Thanks for all the advice so far. I've been getting a lot more micro with city management. I've also read a guide or two about the differences between GPFs, commerce cities and production cities. I do have some additional questions regarding this.

1) With farms, they seem to grow (in output) over time. Eventually, the bread slices become a whole loaf, which I take to symbolize 5 food production. Is that so, and does it get any bigger than that?

2) Playing on tectonics (my favorite map type), I sometimes get areas where there is literally no viable food sources (either rivered lands or food resources), but there may be other resources. Are these areas basically uninhabitable? Or, is it sometimes worth putting a city in right next to a resource, only work that tile, just stake a claim?

I think that's it for now. Thanks again.

[s.bernbaum]

1) The farms don't grow over time, they grow when certain techs are researched. When you research Civil Service, you can spread irrigation. When you spread it to a previous dry land resource farm (corn, wheat, rice) they gain another bread slice. When you research Biology, all farms gain another slice. So, irrigated corn, for instance, with biology gives you 4 slices for being farmed corn, one for being irrigated and one more for Bio, total six slices, which is one loaf plus a slice.

2) If you have enough income to support an extra city, which is usually true by mid game, it is well worth settling such a site in order to get the resource but not until then.

[UnforcedError]

In addition to what other posters said:

1. As long as a city does not grow to a few improved tiles you shouldn't stop the growth. You now built 2 settlers and 3 workers with 5 hammers / turn. That's very ineffective. The reason why we recommended getting a worker first in general is because it can be used to improve the tiles in the capital's BFC. After the worker it's usually advisable to let the city grow (e.g. build some warriors or in this special case workboats) to a min size of 3 (4 is even better). While the city grows the worker can improve the food and possibly build a mine, so that your next worker / settler can be built with say 10 or more hammers / turn.

2. Fishing starts are generally tricky and much slower than agg / AH starts. Was the wheat unfogged when you settled your cap? (If yes, settling it 1SE would have been a much better idea.) The right build / tech order in this particular case might have been something like this:
Start building a worker in the cap, tech Fishing. As soon as Fishing's in (next tech: Mining, BW), swap cap to workboat, maximize hammers. Improve a clam tile, work it while you build another workboat (the worker would come too early and it can't really do much without BW). Now finish (whip) the worker, which should chop the riverside grassland for a farm first, then some hills for mines. Next tech is either AH (cows) or Sailing (for a lighthouse to have 5-food clams). Note: an improved plains cow nets 3F so it can't exactly be called a food-resource. It's a powerful tile with its hammers but not a tile you'd want your city to grow on.

[Kneller]

Now finish (whip) the worker...

I've mentioned this before, but I refuse to use slavery (even in just a video game), mostly out of principle. That leads me to a question though. I've heard that slavery was practically necessary at higher difficulty levels. What is the highest difficulty level at which one can reasonably succeed without using slavery?

Also, I have another question. Based on what I've learned in this thread, I think I'm getting a grasp on city placement. What I've done, as a bit of an exercise, is start new games and decide where I would put a city based on the opening positions. It's often different than where the AI suggests I put my first city. Then I take a few turns to use the units to scout to terrain, only enough so I could see what the BFC would look like for both my city and the AI suggest one. I'm finding, more often that not, that when we differ, my proposed city would have more FPC and other resources and possibly even defense. Is the AI bad at these suggestions, or am I just not getting it yet?

[UnforcedError]

Originally Posted by Kneller

I've mentioned this before, but I refuse to use slavery (even in just a video game), mostly out of principle.

That is why I enclosed it in partentheses. Build it normally, if you don't want to slave ().

Originally Posted by Kneller

That leads me to a question though. I've heard that slavery was practically necessary at higher difficulty levels. What is the highest difficulty level at which one can reasonably succeed without using slavery?

No idea, as the AIs will use it as well (although not as effectively as you could). As slavery is an inherent part of the game you will always be at a disadvantage. I will try to play some test-games for fun to see how wee I can do without it. Never actually tried not using it.

Originally Posted by Kneller

Also, I have another question. Based on what I've learned in this thread, I think I'm getting a grasp on city placement. What I've done, as a bit of an exercise, is start new games and decide where I would put a city based on the opening positions. It's often different than where the AI suggests I put my first city. Then I take a few turns to use the units to scout to terrain, only enough so I could see what the BFC would look like for both my city and the AI suggest one. I'm finding, more often that not, that when we differ, my proposed city would have more FPC and other resources and possibly even defense. Is the AI bad at these suggestions, or am I just not getting it yet?

Taking a few turns to scout the terrain is wrong. Move your warrior / scout so that it unfogs more tiles (if you can), pick your spot and settle. Letting your first settler roam around in the wilderness looking for the perfect place is not a good idea. You want to start teching and producing things asap. (If you see a good spot but can also see that it takes 1-2 turns to get there (e.g. have to cross a forest tile), that's not a big problem as the better spot will pay it back.

Btw on most map scripts the position of your settler guarantees that your capital's BFC
-- won't have any unusable tiles (desert, peaks)
-- won't have tundra or junge
-- will be next to fresh water
-- will have (some) food resource

So if you're unsure, just settle in place.