What do you do when you loose liberalism?

[i_imperator]

Ok so its a pretty standard move in most games to go for that great mid game tech path of papaer -> liberalism. The free bonus tech that you can get with Nationlism, Printing Press or astronomy (hell ive even seen some players lib steel and biology) usually allows you to trade with the AI, as the AI usually dosen't favour the route to liberalism.

However for some reason, unless ive gone crazy with early game conquest and ive managed to pick up my economy again, i feel like ever time i miss on lib that im behind. My options for tech trading and getting to democracy faster are limited. And im just wondering how do you guys deal with this? How do you adapt to loosing liberalism, and what do you do when you loose liberalism?

[Rusty Edge]

I try to build broadcast towers, because conservative talk radio is the alternative to liberalism.

[Pangaea]

That's just the light alternative. Go for Communism instead

This question is probably intended for the higher levels, which I'm not good enough to play (yet). But speaking as a Noble player, it seems more difficult to not get it than to get it.

[elmurcis]

If play with tech trade off, than just jump after Rifle and try to make attack to Ai capital who got lib

[rah]

I'm with elmurcis
If not Rifles, then cannons.

[Tortfeasor]

If you're on a conquering spree than Liberalism isn't particularly necessary. You need to decide if the tech you'll get from Liberalism is worth diverting from a direct path to something like Cuirs. or Cannons.

Even if you haven't been been warring it's okay. Liberalism still has a lot of the tech tree ahead so you'll have plenty of opportunities to get other monopoly techs or take over other civs and use their economies to power yours ahead.

[Htadus]

Originally Posted by stevoh

Ok so its a pretty standard move in most games to go for that great mid game tech path of papaer -> liberalism. The free bonus tech that you can get with Nationlism, Printing Press or astronomy (hell ive even seen some players lib steel and biology) usually allows you to trade with the AI, as the AI usually dosen't favour the route to liberalism.

However for some reason, unless ive gone crazy with early game conquest and ive managed to pick up my economy again, i feel like ever time i miss on lib that im behind. My options for tech trading and getting to democracy faster are limited. And im just wondering how do you guys deal with this? How do you adapt to loosing liberalism, and what do you do when you loose liberalism?

First, if I lost it, say by 1 turn, as I did in the last WOTM, I weep like my 5.5 year old daughter who did not get something her way. Storm away from teh computer while asking myself why did I not build wealth/scince and about lalagaging. Once this is over and tears are dry I go into default play.

It is the same as what I do if it appers that I am going to miss it due to fast teching game. So, after education I plan to bulb PP with 1 GS. By then you should be able to do some tech trades to aquire other essential techs with Education. If not, you should be the first to PP and can use it to do some catch up. Typically I want Liberalism to run Free Religion for the science and Diplo boost from not having a state religion. Most AI seem to want to trade Lib. So it is a good idea to put a few turns into lib to trade PP for Lib before doing another round of trades. It is likely at this point they all think you are too advanced to trade.

Now your planned VC should drive your tech path. In either case, it is good to keep your GP farm heading for more GS's since that path will give you some powerful bulb options toward Physics. (Many times in my games, my tech rate is high enough that a GS will only reduce 3 turns from Physics, but if that 3 turns get me a tech that i know can trade easliy, then I am all for it. I find Asoka and Hanni can mess with this since they both have beaten me once to Physics while at tech parity.)

The other option is to set tach path to Assembly line (skipping Rifle when possible and trade later) and GS bulb toward Physics. About 5 additional GS's will keep both tech paths viable. You will need to temporarily change techpath to complete the Physics path tech. I have done this upto Emperor with consistant results and at Immortal couple of times. This is very dependant on the leader and land mass at Immortal. Elisabeth does it very well.

[TheWilltoAct]

By avoiding Machinery in a recent game I set myself up to bulb Liberalism, but the plan fell through when I was too slow in generating an additional Great Scientist (I had intended to bulb Education for speed). Still, seeing Liberalism as a desirable technology I proceeded to bulb and ended up with reasonable trade bait (the civic options turned out to be moot). Knowing that Liberalism will allow me to research Communism soon, I wasn't completely heart broken.

As Htadus points out, Printing Press is an excellent deviation from the Liberalism path if you want to trade that around for some technologies. Usually I have Machinery before Education, which assigns Printing Press as the subsequent bulb preference for a Great Scientist.

Sorry if that was difficult to follow, I myself find bulb order to be unintuitive at best...

[Kallikrates]

It seems that many find the main advantage of Liberalism in getting techs to trade, not to establish a tech lead?
Are there rules of thumb which techs should rather not be traded? I for one would be wary to give Mansa or other financial leaders Printing Press or Liberalism or other techs that would boost his strengths, if he is not considerably behind or weak.
Unless they are enemies will AIs always trade techs?

[Seraiel]

Originally Posted by stevoh

Ok so its a pretty standard move in most games to go for that great mid game tech path of papaer -> liberalism. The free bonus tech that you can get with Nationlism, Printing Press or astronomy (hell ive even seen some players lib steel and biology) usually allows you to trade with the AI, as the AI usually dosen't favour the route to liberalism.

If you like and have the time, read Replay #3 from my signature, I libbed Medicine in it.

However for some reason, unless ive gone crazy with early game conquest and ive managed to pick up my economy again, i feel like ever time i miss on lib that im behind. My options for tech trading and getting to democracy faster are limited. And im just wondering how do you guys deal with this? How do you adapt to loosing liberalism, and what do you do when you loose liberalism?

Missing Lib isn't such a big deal imho, as Lib is a mostly useless tech that is only good for tech-trade, or if you go for CV (or in very very very late-game when you have lot's of towns, but having lots of towns usually contradicts loosing Liberlism :> ) . Look at the number of Beakers you loose and the number of beakers you gain through it (about 20% Beakers gained when libbing MT which is the most common target, if not counting Lib itself, because again, useless) .
Therefor, simply research like you do normally, doesn't make a huge difference. Aim for Steel as Cannons + anything will most likely get you a win. Of course if you can Lib Steel, it's great, no, that's actually too much, it's good because Steel costs twice as much as Lib, get the point?

Originally Posted by Kallikrates

It seems that many find the main advantage of Liberalism in getting techs to trade, not to establish a tech lead?
Are there rules of thumb which techs should rather not be traded? I for one would be wary to give Mansa or other financial leaders Printing Press or Liberalism or other techs that would boost his strengths, if he is not considerably behind or weak.
Unless they are enemies will AIs always trade techs?

See above, and, you have a totally wrong understanding of the strength of techs or how AIs tech-trade. PP is a weak tech, it does boost Commerce a little, but 1. it boosts commerce relatively more for non-FIN leaders (3-4, 4-5) than it pushes FIN-leaders (4-5, 5-6) . The absoute value is defined by the number of towns an AI has. AIs likely to build cottages often are the FIN ones (makes sense) but their stupid worker-management often lets them build farms over towns, then change them back to cottages, then build workshops, a.s.o. , so you actually have to look at your target, does it have many towns (most likely not) , so PP = great for trading as expensive for it's time but often of little use to the AI (in contrast to the player, who of course has a better worker-management and doesn't destroy villages unless he plays with automated ones or is stupid ) .
Liberalism is a stronger tech than PP, but again, it's not strong. It doesn't get the AI land, it doesn't make the AI win wars, it doesn't higher their strenght. It pushes Commerce only slightly because of the mechanism above, and it's mostly "annoying" because of the border pressure. If AIs win a CV against you, you're actually doing something wrong, because you can have Nukes or anything by the time that VC gets in reach. You can also prevent AIs from switching into Free Speach, by bribing them against each other / use spies / make them switch by having a good diplomacy which again is not really needed.
Examples for strong techs are: Alpha (enables tech-trade) , Calendar (makes them get a lot of ressources which higher and ) , Construction (Catapults) CoL (Courthouses and Caste System) , Civil Service (Production and Commerce and Macement + possibility to spread Irrigation) , Economics (Free Market) , Nationalism (Possibility to draf) , Constituation (REP -> Specialist Research) , Steel (Cannons) and then, Corporations (Corporations itself but especially the additional TR like Free Market) a. s. o. so Military techs, and passive techs, and techs giving key-structures / ressources / civics.

Concerning tech-trade, AIs trade defined by the attitude they have to each other (friendly AIs trade everything) and the tech-trade-known-%-value (defining how many civs have to know a tech so they're willing to trade it) . Mansa is a special case with a value of 0, so he trades when 0% know the tech (= always, he's "The Whore") . Tokugawa is the other extreme, he trades when 100% of the Civs know a tech (= never) . Fast techers often are the ones, who trade techs early (Mansa, Willem, Pericles, Peter, Wang Kon) , be careful to trade monopoly techs with them. Good trade-partners are the ones you yourself have on friendly (therefor get everything from them) but who don't have any friends (= they don't give away your techs becacuse of good diplomacy) and that have a high tech-trade-known-%-value (Tokugawa, Sitting Bull, Stalin, Ramesses, Isabella, Napoleon, Bismarck) .

Hth, for more information, view Kossins Signature and have a look at the complete XML-Files by DanF.

Sera

[Htadus]

Originally Posted by Kallikrates

It seems that many find the main advantage of Liberalism in getting techs to trade, not to establish a tech lead?
I think you have misunderstood most of us. The best purpose of getting liberalism is to get a tech that would cost many turns to learn the normal way. The best type of tech is something that can not be easily bulbed and very useful. Right now for me that tech is Medicine. Most of the techs along that path can be bulbed. However, this is map dependant and some times Assembly Line is better. But going back to the original post, the function of completing Liberalism after llosing the race is to use that as a trade bait to get to tech parity.
BTW, if you do win the race, it is very likely that you do have a tech lead and if not you can trade one of the two techs that you have over the AI can be used to get to tech lead

Are there rules of thumb which techs should rather not be traded?
Rules of thumb are generally bad if you are behind. However, I never trade Nationalism untill Taj is done. Almost never trade Assembly Line. No trade communism on land heavy maps.
I for one would be wary to give Mansa or other financial leaders Printing Press or Liberalism or other techs that would boost his strengths, if he is not considerably behind or weak.
As Seraiel already mentioned, the advantage is more significant for a nonfinancial civ due to the percent increase is less for a financial civ. 4 to 5 cpt increase is 25% while 5 to 6cpt is 20% increase. The main purpose of tech trade for me is to maintain tech parity or lead while acquireing techs that i do not want to learn on my own in order to get to my next tech.
Unless they are enemies will AIs always trade techs?

Contrary to normal belief that AI trade techs freely, experience suggest that they do not. In many games I have found Some AI dropping behind while being +10 buddies of tech leaders. They probably do give freebees as they do human players when we are behind. But not to tech parity. OTOH, I have noticed newly vasseled AI having the same techs as the master several times. Seem weird at first but then realized I do similar in order for my vassel to learn a tech for me. I gift all the tech s needed for my vassel to learn the tech I need. So back to your question, they do not seem to freely trade but likely have lower trade value to trade say education for philo.

[Rusty Edge]

Originally Posted by Pangaea

That's just the light alternative. Go for Communism instead

[Ramesses-Rules]

I normally use every diplomatic tactic in the book against my greatest rival in the Liberalism race. If I still lose the race, then "plan B" can be a variety of things. If I am strong on science, I might go for the late cultural wonders, but I haven't really tried that in a long time. Otherwise, there is always the start a new game option when it looks hopeless.

[jokulmorder]

i don't find losing lib to be a big deal unless you're only a few turns away; then you get stuck with this fairly useless tech and an important trade partner may have it (hopefully now is a good time to go FR =D). FS is not so good at this point usually because you are probably getting more out of your capitol.

there are other good paths to take. the lib path really loses you out on a lot of hammers you could get from workshops (guilds) and banks. the great artist path also has some goodies that you likely don't have time to get yourself: great library, earlier national/heroic, basically a free golden age from the music artist, theaters are cheap happiness building...

lots of good choices outside the middle tech line. lib is tempting though a lot because scientists bulb a lot of the critical techs and once they get aesthetics the AI really like art path (they value that free great artist way too heavily =/) and a lot of the bottom tech line is difficult to trade away safely (you don't wanna hand out metal casting and machinery to war AIs...).

of course the biggest draw from the lib path is that you get so many other goodies along the way: civil service and code of law are like the holy grail of civ and currency is god in tech form.

in the end, losing lib is not the end of the world imo! a lot of the time you don't even need to pursue it!

[i_imperator]

Originally Posted by Pangaea

That's just the light alternative. Go for Communism instead

This question is probably intended for the higher levels, which I'm not good enough to play (yet). But speaking as a Noble player, it seems more difficult to not get it than to get it.

Funniest post on the thread so far anyways, especially as a history student! But seriously yes it is intended for monarch+ levels, although i think you should still read the other posts carefuly, if you plan on moving up difficulity levels. Its a question that has always been on my mind until now, as i move up to immortal.

Originally Posted by Tortfeasor

If you're on a conquering spree than Liberalism isn't particularly necessary. You need to decide if the tech you'll get from Liberalism is worth diverting from a direct path to something like Cuirs. or Cannons.

Even if you haven't been been warring it's okay. Liberalism still has a lot of the tech tree ahead so you'll have plenty of opportunities to get other monopoly techs or take over other civs and use their economies to power yours ahead.

ah ok i was under the impression that on the higer difficulities, on Emperor, that i should not give the AI any advantage, as they get enough of them. I just feel uncomfortable loosing lib, becuase i like to use it as a benchmark in my games, in order to compare my tech pace with the AI.
What other good monopoly techs are there after lib? I suppose communism, physics and biology are three to mention along with nationlism and rifiles.

Originally Posted by Htadus

It is the same as what I do if it appers that I am going to miss it due to fast teching game. So, after education I plan to bulb PP with 1 GS. By then you should be able to do some tech trades to aquire other essential techs with Education. If not, you should be the first to PP and can use it to do some catch up. Typically I want Liberalism to run Free Religion for the science and Diplo boost from not having a state religion. Most AI seem to want to trade Lib. So it is a good idea to put a few turns into lib to trade PP for Lib before doing another round of trades. It is likely at this point they all think you are too advanced to trade.

Now your planned VC should drive your tech path. In either case, it is good to keep your GP farm heading for more GS's since that path will give you some powerful bulb options toward Physics. (Many times in my games, my tech rate is high enough that a GS will only reduce 3 turns from Physics, but if that 3 turns get me a tech that i know can trade easliy, then I am all for it. I find Asoka and Hanni can mess with this since they both have beaten me once to Physics while at tech parity.)

The other option is to set tach path to Assembly line (skipping Rifle when possible and trade later) and GS bulb toward Physics. About 5 additional GS's will keep both tech paths viable. You will need to temporarily change techpath to complete the Physics path tech. I have done this upto Emperor with consistant results and at Immortal couple of times. This is very dependant on the leader and land mass at Immortal. Elisabeth does it very well.

I was going to ask this in the current IU Mao, but i felt that more players could benefit from a discussion from it. Ok so obviously there is alot more emphasis on bulbing techs on the lib race at immortal. I never thought about just attacking the guy (or gal) who goes for it, with just rifels/infantry/seige. But what if the guy who has gotten lib has a ton of land/pop and a few vassles, will millitary conquest be an option at all vs him untill nukes?

Ok so the bonus from printing press should help toward the loss on lib. I didnt know that.

Also when it comes to bulbing the techs to lib, what are the best civ's combo to do so? Im thinking Pacifism (if you have a state religion for the 100% bonus), Caste System and Rep (if you get the mids).

Originally Posted by TheWilltoAct

By avoiding Machinery in a recent game I set myself up to bulb Liberalism, but the plan fell through when I was too slow in generating an additional Great Scientist (I had intended to bulb Education for speed). Still, seeing Liberalism as a desirable technology I proceeded to bulb and ended up with reasonable trade bait (the civic options turned out to be moot). Knowing that Liberalism will allow me to research Communism soon, I wasn't completely heart broken.

As Htadus points out, Printing Press is an excellent deviation from the Liberalism path if you want to trade that around for some technologies. Usually I have Machinery before Education, which assigns Printing Press as the subsequent bulb preference for a Great Scientist.

Sorry if that was difficult to follow, I myself find bulb order to be unintuitive at best...

Ok its good to know that printing press is a good alternative, like i said above i didnt know that at all.
I have always found the bulbing system to be a bit complicated in this game, but im starting to understand it a bit more now. You post definitaly helped with that!

[noto2]

losing liberalism is not a huge problem

[joanne]

There was a long discussion fairly recently about how being first to liberalism is overrated, lots of great posts from great players arguing about the benefits/costs of pursuing the lib techpath compared with alternative techpaths and examining situations when winning lib is most/least rewarding. OP might want to see that - here's the link.

[Htadus]

Originally Posted by i_imperator

What other good monopoly techs are there after lib? I suppose communism, physics and biology are three to mention along with nationlism and rifiles. Most AI covet Rifle, as a result i rarely tech it my self. Nationalism is something that can be easily abtained and traded, the funny thing is that AI also love to tech it and will trade it if you are willing to skip the Taj.

I was going to ask this in the current IU Mao, but i felt that more players could benefit from a discussion from it. Ok so obviously there is alot more emphasis on bulbing techs on the lib race at immortal. I never thought about just attacking the guy (or gal) who goes for it, with just rifels/infantry/seige. But what if the guy who has gotten lib has a ton of land/pop and a few vassles, will millitary conquest be an option at all vs him untill nukes?This depend on the map and type of collateral units you have. If the access to the super Ai is limited and you can force it to come through a controlled area then DOW and wait for it to come into your culture, then lead off with colateral and finish off the stack. Will likely need to this twice before advancing.

Ok so the bonus from printing press should help toward the loss on lib. I didnt know that.There is a reason for this. GS's give you most bang to the buck(bulbs) and they are easy to farm and after Education (and machinary) this is the next tech (assuming you know Philo too). It is of a high enough value and very tradable.

Also when it comes to bulbing the techs to lib, what are the best civ's combo to do so? Im thinking Pacifism (if you have a state religion for the 100% bonus), Caste System and Rep (if you get the mids). Those are fine civics to run given the conditions are met. The alternative is to select the right civ to play. My personal favorite is Gandhi, you can switch and whip many cities for 5 turns and then swich to CS and run many specialist in GP farms. Personally I like spiritual over Pacifism, less so in BTS than other releases, for the ability to change civics at will.

I have always found the bulbing system to be a bit complicated in this game, but im starting to understand it a bit more now. You post definitaly helped with that!

I highly recommend you look at DaveMcW's article in war academy. Single most important article there is.

Originally Posted by joanne

There was a long discussion fairly recently about how being first to liberalism is overrated, lots of great posts from great players arguing about the benefits/costs of pursuing the lib techpath compared with alternative techpaths and examining situations when winning lib is most/least rewarding. OP might want to see that - here's the link.

Actually that article had some real great players saying how much better to get Lib versus some players who claim that it is not that of a big deal to not get to lib first. Lets face it, you can win without getting a free tech. However, getting a good tech 15 turns earlier for a tech that has additional use and denying the AI a tech jump is simply better. Anyone who says that Liberalism is weak has yet to venture into games beyond just Domi and Conq. 10% boost in bulbs is 10% boost.

[i_imperator]

Originally Posted by Seraiel

If you like and have the time, read Replay #3 from my signature, I libbed Medicine in it.



Missing Lib isn't such a big deal imho, as Lib is a mostly useless tech that is only good for tech-trade, or if you go for CV (or in very very very late-game when you have lot's of towns, but having lots of towns usually contradicts loosing Liberlism :> ) . Look at the number of Beakers you loose and the number of beakers you gain through it (about 20% Beakers gained when libbing MT which is the most common target, if not counting Lib itself, because again, useless) .
Therefor, simply research like you do normally, doesn't make a huge difference. Aim for Steel as Cannons + anything will most likely get you a win. Of course if you can Lib Steel, it's great, no, that's actually too much, it's good because Steel costs twice as much as Lib, get the point?

Wow Medicine from liberalism??!!!! Thats very impressive and has got to be a record. I do remember comming across that game a few weeks ago on S&T, so i'll definitaly read it within the next week.

Originally Posted by Htadus

I highly recommend you look at DaveMcW's article in war academy. Single most important article there is.



Actually that article had some real great players saying how much better to get Lib versus some players who claim that it is not that of a big deal to not get to lib first. Lets face it, you can win without getting a free tech. However, getting a good tech 15 turns earlier for a tech that has additional use and denying the AI a tech jump is simply better. Anyone who says that Liberalism is weak has yet to venture into games beyond just Domi and Conq. 10% boost in bulbs is 10% boost.

Thanks for the advice Htadus, I will definitaly check out Dave's artical, his stuff is always worth reading.

Originally Posted by joanne

There was a long discussion fairly recently about how being first to liberalism is overrated, lots of great posts from great players arguing about the benefits/costs of pursuing the lib techpath compared with alternative techpaths and examining situations when winning lib is most/least rewarding. OP might want to see that - here's the link.

Great thread, thanks for linking it!

[bhavv]

Liberalism first is the most over rated tactic in the game. Bulbing towards liberalism is the second most over rated tactic in the game. Philosophic is the most over rated trait in the game.

All of these are just a bad habit based crutch for players who don't know / refuse to play the game any other way, like players who will only ever pick Fin or Cre.