Having trouble with Emperor difficulty

[Veneke]

Originally Posted by Tiber4321

@Veneke I'm still not sure if the OP had a victory path in mind or not.

Yeah, I think that's probably fair. I also agree with your points regarding wonders. You can get away with building quite a number of them on Emperor/Immortal.

TBH, if OP likes wonder building he might give the Cultural VC a go. I think it's meant to be the hardest of the VCs but it seems perfectly suited to small empires/wonders orientated players, which looks something that OP could be interested in.

[regeneration64]

Originally Posted by Veneke

Yeah, I think that's probably fair. I also agree with your points regarding wonders. You can get away with building quite a number of them on Emperor/Immortal.

TBH, if OP likes wonder building he might give the Cultural VC a go. I think it's meant to be the hardest of the VCs but it seems perfectly suited to small empires/wonders orientated players, which looks something that OP could be interested in.

I'm currently going for a Diplomatic victory on King. Having a similar game to the one I discussed in my OP but the two civs on my continent are less "runaway" and more of a hinderance.

I've only ever gone for a cultural vicrtory once (on Prince) and was successful. I felt quite overpowered with the massive borders and endless SPs! I also did this with a relatively wide empire. I'm not currently interested in going for a cultural victory but if I am struggling with Domination (my likely choice for my next game on Emperor) I may turtle up with a tall empire and go for cultural whilst the AI battles it out all game. It would be a good practice for defensive techniques too. However, I think I would still have the problem of a runaway civ on another continent who I am unable to reach in time before them reaching victory...

Peaceful builder is my favourite gameplay style which I guess is orinatated towards a cultural victory but can be good for other VCs too with the high production. I want to learn some more so I am trying to be more military focused (one of my biggest flaws), going down different SPs/techs, and toning down the wonders! That's what I love most about CiV - no game is the same (aside from I almost always have Russia in my RANDOM civilization games... ).

Thanks for all of the replies. I will be referring back to this thread during my current King game and will report back on how my next Emperor game goes taking into account your advice. Everyone has been most helpful.

[regeneration64]

I've just finished my latest King game and hope that I have learnt some valuable transferable skills for Emperor. As usual I was England and won a diplomatic victory on a standard continents plus map on Turn 332 (1912).

* Cities: I had 3 tall cities and 8 puppets thanks to my neighbours. Lots of trading posts.
* SPs: I chose Liberty and left hand side of Patronage and Rationalism as well as being able to complete Freedom.
* Gold: +465. Which is the most I have had per turn without Commerce and a current Golden Age.
* Science: +1315. This is by far the most I have ever had per turn. London was producing 312 alone! I think this is what won it for me as I had a large tech lead. This will be cruicial for Emperor.
* Happiness: This was my only problem due to the high population (even in puppets, which I aquired early on) but never went below -9. It was annoying because I could have got my 3 cities to much higher populations (London was 33 by 1912).

What I've learnt

1. Build tall, conquer wide. I used to go wide from the outset on Prince and this is a habit I need to get out of to manage happiness without Piety etc
2. Minimise wonders. Especially at the start when city growth and defence are more important. I actually found that I was able to build a number of late wonders because of my tech lead and relative safety. I still had 12 world wonders by 1912 (a lot, I know) but I only build these later/when it was safe to do so.
3. Focus on science. Maintain that tech lead. If only I had done this on my last emperor game in the OP!
4. Turtle up at the start. The beginning of any game is tough and on Emperor it's only going to get tougher. I have to realise that money doesn't matter to much and a few turns of negative income can be offset later by not losing the game due to a civ invading my capital with a large army
5. Puppet cities. This was an experiment as I usually annex cities after puppeting them. I left them all as puppets (bar one around 1850 which was doing really well and good for pumping out units). Is this something the Community would recommend doing on Emperor? I could stay with, say, 4 of my own cities but I think that by puppeting others I receive a huge boost to gold and science from all those trading posts (combined with Rationlism).


New Emperor game starts today. I'm thinking Small Continents and (mainly) default settings this time. Will aim for a Domination victory and probably choose Honor over Patronage but this will be map and civ dependent.

Please advise if I've overlooked anything above that I need to bear in mind. Thanks again.

[The Pilgrim]

Good job, regeneration64!

I don't necessary agree with your first conclusion. When the land is good and happiness is manageable I fail to see a reason not to expand, but that's a matter of personal preference.
As for annexing puppets the opinions also vary. Some like to annex most of them to exploit courthouses and boost happiness, some choose to annex only puppets with universities - these cities will likely generate GS if you fill the specialists slots, some make tactical choice which cities to annex - those which are close to front and allow purchasing units. All options are viable. It depends mostly on desired victory condition and you play style.
If you're going for culture it doesn't make sense to annex cities that will increase policies costs. For science - you want as many working universities as possible. In domination games you're often have no choice but annex military recruitment centers or just generic cities to deal with severe unhappiness. Each game is different.

Anyways, thumbs up and good luck with your next game! Keep us posted.

[Veneke]

Nicely done mate.

In terms of wonders if you're having trouble with happiness the Circus Maximus is a good national wonder to spend the hammers on. It's an easy one to forget because you need a Colleseum everywhere for the option to become available.

With regards puppets I think Puppets+Trade posts is considered a pretty decent move. You have to make sure to get the Trade Posts though, otherwise I'm of a mind to say that any of the other options put forward by The Pilgrim would be better.

The Pilgrim is right in that if you're swimming in happiness and there's a good place to settle then you shouldn't feel that you can't settle there. There's no point passing up 6 Iron or a luxury and a decent spot for instance because the happiness will come in time. If you spot any two of these unique luxury, ivory/horses and/or marble/stone you can make that city cost no happiness relatively quickly once you have Construction. However, there's absolutely nothing wrong with playing it safe.

Best of luck with your Emperor game!

[Syailendra]

I want to add something about wonders. Its great that you can build 12 wonders, really!
Its not a sin to build wonders, but there is something that many players don't understand, which is:
1. In order to survive especially on harder difficulty, you must spent those hammers into something THAT YOU NEED, not that you want. Everybody wants to build wonders, but great players know what he needs and build it first. This is the good mentality.
2. Wonders have flavours. Prioritize the one that synergies with your civ and playstyle, I almost build himeji everytime coz it supports my playstyle.
3. Some wonders are better taken than built, those are wonders that don't include instant bonus or strengthten defenses.
4. Some wonders such as oxford and great library are better left to be taken as late as possible coz it will give better prize. While some are better early, you still need to consider your needs (remember point 1). Eg. If I need extra food early coz my starting point is on hills range, i'll build hanging garden early, why? Because i can't feed my pop! But if i'm on grassland, well, just forget that it even existed.

[The Pilgrim]

While I strongly against wonder-whoring, if you have a big technological lead, have nothing valuable to build and really like wonders - why not. The early stages is when you should focus on what you need and not what you want. But when you get to the point that you actually can get wonders on higher difficulties (immortal/deity), meaning that there is nothing you really really need , and you can afford building some stuff you want. It's like a holiday after exhausting period of hard work. They still don't contribute to faster finish or the most optimal path, but many players don't care about these things and just want to have fun. There is nothing wrong with them as long as they don't jeopardize your position.
BTW, regarding Oxford, I wouldn't go as far as saying it's always better delay it as long as possible. For science/diplo games - sure. But in domination I found myself more than once rushing it to bulb not the most expensive military tech like Rifling or Dynamite even if I assume the game will last for long after that and I can save many more beakers by building it later. The immediate advantage of highly advanced units sometimes outweighs potential benefits in far future. Again, every game is different.

P.S. And one more thing about wonders. In some games wonders just go late for no particular reason (actually there is a reason. It happens mainly when AI controlled civs are involved in endless major wars and crank out units instead). Even on the highest difficulties. If you pay attention and see that wonders are not built by AI in their usual time frame, you know you have some breathing space and going after them is just a little safer.

[regeneration64]

Originally Posted by The Pilgrim

[Wonders] They still don't contribute to faster finish or the most optimal path, but many players don't care about these things and just want to have fun. There is nothing wrong with them as long as they don't jeopardize your position.

I think this is the reason why I like them. They are just fun. And, as I think I've previously mentioned, I prefer combat from the late industrial era onwards so I can often drag out my games but I find that much more fun that trying to get a victory during the medieval period.


With that in mind... I am doing much better in my current Emperor game. I'm on Turn 156 (920AD) with three cities of 5-12 pop. I've made sure that one is settled near 6 iron!!

Bismarck and Askia are my closet neighbours. Bismarck to the north (separated by a narrow piece of land with a city state) and Askia to the West (separated by coast). Askia is currently waging war with countless pikemen and archers but I have 2 Longbowmen, a Swordmen and a Pikemen with a Cannon being built. They are defending well but I need to build up my forces to launch a counterattack as Askia has also recently settled on my little continent and is clearly not interested in peace. I've allied China to the west of Askia to keep him occupied.

I think once Askia is out of the game it is advisable to head north and eliminate Bismarck. He's got some good resources too.

My science is a lower than I would have wanted at +63 but the NC has been built with universities building now and I am currently just leading in tech.

My biggest worry is Catherine. (Every game I have Russia is in it!!) She's got 9 cities already and is leading in population, land etc and is waging war on her continent. Catherine is to the East of my territory, across an ocean, but I bet it's only a matter of time before she becomes a runaway and launches an invasion. My plan is to deal with her later but not leave it too late (I've made that mistake before).

EDIT: I've currently got 6 World Wonders. They are like a drug...

[Syailendra]

My my! 6 wonders in 150ish? Yes, you're addicted brother.
Without them, you'd probably already conquer germany by that time.

[regeneration64]

Originally Posted by Syailendra

My my! 6 wonders in 150ish? Yes, you're addicted brother.
Without them, you'd probably already conquer germany by that time.

I know. I really need to bear in mind what people have said here. It's what I need that matters, not what I want. No chance of Immortal games just yet! Germany is now a large threat only 20 tiles away with an army around 3x the size of mine. Time to build up my defences I guess. I can confirm that that will be all of the world wonders I will build atm otherwise I think it will be game over!

I've doubled my science now so ahead on tech my a larger margin. That's one worry over.

[Syailendra]

Its good to hear that you still manage to lead, what level do you play the game? Is it emperor?
Well, a game is worth playing only if you have a lot of fun from it, right! At least when later you are having trouble jump to harder games, you already know the theory.

[The Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by regeneration64

Germany is now a large threat only 20 tiles away with an army around 3x the size of mine.

That's what I meant by jeopardizing your position. Luckily for you, AI is so bad at combat, these numbers are almost irrelevant and with proper tactical skills human player can successfully defend against even higher ratio and eventually go offensive as well.
The bigger problem is when you rely on RA's. That's usually the case when you don't have huge army that supplies research by other means. Being so relatively strong compared to you will encourage most of AI leaders to DoW and break an agreement.

Also 63 per turn at 156 is low indeed. Universities should be up and running by now. As you said:

Originally Posted by regeneration64

No chance of Immortal games just yet!

Now, when the patient will be ready to get cured... He knows what he has to do.

[regeneration64]

Originally Posted by The Pilgrim

That's what I meant by jeopardizing your position. Luckily for you, AI is so bad at combat, these numbers are almost irrelevant and with proper tactical skills human player can successfully defend against even higher ratio and eventually go offensive as well.
The bigger problem is when you rely on RA's. That's usually the case when you don't have huge army that supplies research by other means. Being so relatively strong compared to you will encourage most of AI leaders to DoW and break an agreement.

Also 63 per turn at 156 is low indeed. Universities should be up and running by now. As you said:

Now, when the patient will be ready to get cured... He knows what he has to do.

I think I'll be able to hold off against the Germans. Like you said, defence is pretty easy (a cannon in every city should do the trick, for now).

I was a little slow researching education as I needed to get to Steel/Machinery too as I was becoming increasingly concerned about Askia and Bismarck. I've filled in the void now. Turn 181 and +117 Science (it's amazing how universities double your Science!) I gave up on my last Emperor game at Turn 182.

I'll post again when I've gotten a little further or need some more help. Thanks again everyone, got a great Community here.

[Dizzy75]

This thread has been interesting to me since I'm coming back after a long hiatus. Last time I played, I think ICS was the flavor of the month.

I've started a few Emperor games (continents and pangaea), all as Babylon, and I've been trying to avoid some of the mistakes here.

I've also found that 3-4 strong core cities, plus puppets seems to be the way to go. The puppets seem to take care of gold problems and (ironically) early happiness, due to the additional luxuries. For me, that means building at least 5 (usually 6-8) warriors/bowmen and then turtling while I tech the research-enhancing techs.

I think I'm struggling now with the optimal time to switch over into war-mode, since it requires diverging to the lower part of the tech tree (and therefore hurting your tech lead). A sword army with catapults seems too weak if you wait until Education, but a war pre-Education seems to seriously deflate your tech lead. Maybe it depends on how close your neighbors are...

[regeneration64]

UPDATE: I recently started my first Emperor game on G&K after getting used to the new mechanics on lower difficulties. I've taken on board the advice provided above but in my current game I'm concerned that I'm not going to achieve a victory condition before the AI does.

As always, I'm playing as England. It's a small continents map (regular settings, aside from legendary start). I have taken Liberty and Commerce as I was planning to gold-focus (with a wide empire) as I have had some really fun gold-focused games in the past, especially in the late-game. I'm most concerned about Russia (yep, she's in my game yet again!), Rome and The Netherlands who have the most territory, largest military, tech lead etc.

To my advantage I am on an isolated continent (save that William has settled a small city to the west). I was sharing it with Sweden but conquered their two cities by around 500AD. I think that this was the right move to make as they were trying to settle another city and this would hinder my own progress. However, conquering Sweden appears to have had a knock-on effect on my tech and victory because I had to pump out units to finish them off. I am currently 3rd in tech (I was much lower) even though I have NC and universities in my larger cities and am struggling to catch up, although the extra spy is helping. I have also had to cut back my military due to low gpt - it's only two gpt now.

I planned to go wide from the outset and I currently have 7 cities (one annexed; 6 settled). There isn't really any more land to settle so now I have to conquer.

Here's my problem: It's 1640AD (turn 238). I am behind in tech so cannot take on the AI with a few advanced units and I only have 2gpt so cannot afford to buy/produce numerous units.

I know I need more cities and trade posts to get the gold coming in and I need libraries and universities for science but to get more gold I have to slow down on science and to get more science I have to slow down on gold. Russia is about to launch an attack on my frontier city (see screenshot 3) and will surely go for my main continent later.

Now, do I:

(1) Turtle up and hope that I can get a tech lead and win a science victory?
(2) Go on the offensive and hope that I can win even with inferior tech and no money? (This may or may not lead to a domination victory)
(3) Turtle up and go for a cultural victory? - 7 cities is arguably too many but there is a chance. I am allied with cultural CSs and have +134 already
(4) Keep building, defend when necessary and worry about victory later (and hopefully improve the situation) - this is what I am currently doing but I am halfway through the game and need to focus

Any advice is most welcome. Btw, I have really cut back on those wonders now (I've got 5 world wonders, one of which was Sweden's). At least happiness is not a problem!


Screenshot 1 - Shows my isolated continent, I have renamed the cities from default. Liverpool was Sweden's capital (Stockholm):

Spoiler:

Screenshot 2 - Demographics:

Spoiler:

Screenshot 3 - Russia about to declare war:

Spoiler:

[pollock]

In reference to the first game. From the little i can see from that screenshot. You have a serious quantity problem. Not enough cities and not enough units. Expand faster , do everything you can for tech rate and build an army

For the second games 3 screenshot it's very simple. MORE TROOPS

There is an army on your doorstep and your building banks and temples and stuff. This is madness.

[regeneration64]

Thanks. Any advice for latest game, post #35?

[The Pilgrim]

@regeneration64
You have only two cities connected by trade routes. Of course your gpt will be lousy. Delete roads and build harbors everywhere. There are also at least one spot to settle - on wine. With 29 happiness you can more than afford it. Was there swedish city you razed? If that's true, you probably shouldn't have done it. There is still no point in razing and resettling. Nevertheless killing a civ completely is never a good idea, it causes severe diplo penalties.
Also your bpt is low for this stage of the game. Universities should be built and staffed in all cities and first several GS planted into academies around the capital.

[black_kitten]

Originally Posted by regeneration64

UPDATE:

I planned to go wide from the outset and I currently have 7 cities (one annexed; 6 settled). There isn't really any more land to settle so now I have to conquer.

Although Russia is probably your biggest problem right now as you don't have any units near Nottingham, I don't understand this line of thought. As far as your screenshots show, there's still a lot of unclaimed land on your original continent and a decent spot for a new city east of Vatican City (with truffles as a luxury you don't have in any city shown in detail on your screens). If you really go for a wide empire, you could even build another city in the middle between London, Birmingham and Newcastle for two more silk resources to sell and reduce your financial problem.

In your current situation, I would personally even be willing to give up Nottingham (which doesn't seem crucial to me as you already have 10 spare horses and don't use mounted units at all), thus reduce Russia's potential for further aggression, and focus on City States and infrastructure for your core cities.

I also think a culture victory might be the best path for you, simply because (guessing from the current production on your original continent - Sistine Chapel in Birmingham, Opera in Liverpool) this seems to be the aspect of the game you enjoy most, and that's what a game is about.

Btw, playing England on a small continents map - where's your navy?

[RedRover57]

Playing as Elizabeth is all about beelining to Navigation and then dominating the seas with your superior navy. Two to 4 city NC start works well (depending on the amount of land around you), e.g., Tabarnak's strategy thread. Composite bows are fine for defense, even if you have an aggressive neighbor on the same landmass, until you gain the tech advantage through Education - Astronomy - Navigation beeline. SotL (frigates) require iron, so beelining to Astronomy is also important in case you need to cross ocean tiles to settle a city near iron. If you absolutely must conquer your own landmass to gain space for more than 1-2 cities, then a Machinery beeline (for longbows) may be warranted, using pikemen for meatshields so you don't veer to far away from your main goal (Navigation). Get a decent size navy (triremes, etc.) out quickly so that you can explore early and gain experience killing barb ships.

If you can get to Navigation before the AI civs (easy to do on Emperor), then the game is over for the AI. You can go for a domination, or any other VC actually, with your superior navy to back you up.

I prefer Tradition - Commerce - Rationalism - Order, but Honor would be a valid choice as well for faster experience (to get your ranged ships to Range and Logistics promotions ASAP) and lower upgrade costs (particularly important with a navy as upgrades are expensive).