Tradition's 4 cities opening

[Erneiz Hyde]

I'm a rather average player and after I tried this approach I can certainly sense that this is a strong start indeed, better than most games I've played so far. Playing as the Dutch will ensure every step goes even smoother. I never considered Tradition to be too much of anything besides taking them late for free opera houses. I now reconsider that.

Thanks for the tips, sir!

[iconocast]

thnx for posting this. it seems like its going to be the default opener for Netherlands, im not sure what makes it good for aztecs ( Aztec , Sweden , Netherlands are the civ's i love to play) ?

and regarding sea based lux, if i have land and sea lux in the starting city, should u tech for worker boats and then build them first? or try to work the land based stuff first?

http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/7...750?tab=public

edit -and wow oh wow doesn't starting like this piss off the ai

[peddroelm]

Originally Posted by iconocast

edit -and wow oh wow doesn't starting like this piss off the ai

It royally pisses off (most of) your neighbors .. And if you have more than one you are probably going down (deity) ... If its only one however the incoming (free) DOW can be a blessing with all those CB floating around ... (if you manage to get the cb before the DOW) ... Ideally repel their attack (kill their invasion force in your territory) then move in and capture their poorly defended capital ...

[The Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by vexing

this has not changed.

Has it been patched into vanilla lately?
I get warmonger hate from most known civs every time I steal a worker, something that didn't happen in vanilla. Also seems like civs I haven't met yet don't care.

[Tabarnak]

Originally Posted by iconocast

and regarding sea based lux, if i have land and sea lux in the starting city, should u tech for worker boats and then build them first? or try to work the land based stuff first?

Sea luxs start is a bit tricky but doable. Mining-Pottery-Sailing for the opening, Capital start with scout-worker. Use the worker to chop forests while building workboats(Stay at 3 ). You might build your 4th city later only when you discover writing(after construction).

Less powerful in the beginning but with a lighthouse a bit later your capital should be a real powerhouse with Tradition.

Carthage is the best for this kind of start.

[jeespoks]

Originally Posted by The Pilgrim

Has it been patched into vanilla lately?
I get warmonger hate from most known civs every time I steal a worker, something that didn't happen in vanilla. Also seems like civs I haven't met yet don't care.

I got that hate too after stealing a worker from CS, even from a civ I hadn't met yet. One of them DoW'd me soon after. I'd rather try to get that free worker from a barb camp.

[Elarys]

Very interesting strategy, I'm just wondering if you had any advice or a different strategy for marathon games?

[yanner39]

Enjoyed the LP. This strat seems very effective. The only question I have is if playing peacefully, is worth delaying writing and the National College? I mean, not only is there a deviation in the tech path, but you need to build 4 libraries to get he NC.

Also, I don't know how far ahead to went (hopefully we'll get to see more) but does this approach give you a chance at the Hagia for the free great person or/and Notre Dame for the happiness boost.

[slyrp]

Nice video Tab - especially the part where you make me famous @ 12:38

Looks like a solid way to start a single player game and I like that it's not wonder dependent.

In translating it to the MP domain, the overall idea (of getting 4 cities up and running with tradition asap) is still quite a strong one. However, you can't really buy settlers as gold is much harder to come across.

Would you recommend hoarding it for buying a worker early, or spending it to expand borders to pick up resource squares like cows / wheat / horses to aid initial growth / prod?

Also, I tend to go for resource squares early on (like that stone instead of the cotton) - any particular reason to go with the cotton, or you just couldn't be bothered microing?

One last thing - your previous postings had you going down the IW route instead of archery - do you think that would work for MP? I guess it has the advantage of not having an Iron Gambit? But _some_ humans are smarter than AI when dealing with archers.

[Tabarnak]

Originally Posted by slyrp

Looks like a solid way to start a single player game and I like that it's not wonder dependent.

In translating it to the MP domain, the overall idea (of getting 4 cities up and running with tradition asap) is still quite a strong one. However, you can't really buy settlers as gold is much harder to come across.

Would you recommend hoarding it for buying a worker early, or spending it to expand borders to pick up resource squares like cows / wheat / horses to aid initial growth / prod?

Also, I tend to go for resource squares early on (like that stone instead of the cotton) - any particular reason to go with the cotton, or you just couldn't be bothered microing?

One last thing - your previous postings had you going down the IW route instead of archery - do you think that would work for MP? I guess it has the advantage of not having an Iron Gambit? But _some_ humans are smarter than AI when dealing with archers.

Mp is a lot different. You need to build all by yourself. I think a 3 cities set-up with 1-2lux techs before construction is a good way to begin, starting with Tradition.

Work production tiles first and enough luxuries to grow(don't improve duplicates unless you plan to trade with another player). Chop forests.

You have the time to raise an army of 5-6 CBs around turn 45(quick), can be faster i guess. And it's plenty enough to annoy a human. Iron is too late now to gamble about it. Add 1 city and start libraries in 4 cities if you are comfortable. If not just stick at 3 cities and mix units/buildings as best as possible and don't delay NC too much.

Don't go into his territory if you don't have the number advantage...At par, it's better to defend in our land. Oligarchy is really helpful later too.

Like it is for singleplayer, liberty players with same number of cities than tradition players will suffer of lack of growth and therefore...science,gold and production

Originally Posted by slyrp

Nice video Tab - especially the part where you make me famous @ 12:38

[EEE_BOY]

Hi, Tab, thanks for the nice strategy articleand the prelude. the Archor defense/offense helps me get past turn 40 on deity a lot easier.

I think the GS bulbing ability in the early to mid game is nerfed, so liberty finisher GS can't even finish the upper medieval military tech in one shot. In other words, tradition opening maybe quicker for raw science teching to the upper medieval military tech. In your testings, how quick can you get to these techs if you beeline hard enough? say, Chivarlry, machinery or Steel. In my recent Arab play, I got Chivarlry around 100, not 70-80 as in vanilla. Early defensive Archor may cause the delay, but necessary for survival.

[peddroelm]

Originally Posted by Tabarnak

Like it is for singleplayer, liberty players with same number of cities than tradition players will suffer of lack of growth and therefore...science,gold and production

But since you do have to build the settles yourself - the 50% bonus from liberty towards settler building + the free settler should insure same number of cities situation will never happen (assuming similarly skilled players)..

Back on topic ... perhaps you should also start second city with shrine ... (I noticed you grow the second city a bit too).. With +2/turn you stand a very good chance to get Pantheon even on deity ... Even if you fail to establish a religion - pantheon bonuses alone can be quite powerful early game .. With only +1/turn late (shrine after worker) you risk never getting a pantheon on deity without extra lucky sources (ruins, CS, wonders)

[Tabarnak]

Originally Posted by peddroelm

But since you do have to build the settles yourself - the 50% bonus from liberty towards settler building + the free settler should insure same number of cities will never happen ..

The free settler comes too late for my taste. I have finished building settlers when i get my 3rd policy.

Originally Posted by peddroelm

Back on topic ... perhaps you should also start second city with shrine ... (I noticed you grow second city a bit too).. With +2/turn you stand a very good chance to get Pantheon even on deity ... Even if you fail to establish a religion - pantheon bonuses alone can be quite powerful early game .. With only +1/turn late (shrine after worker) you risk never getting a pantheon on deity without extra lucky sources (ruins, CS, wonders)

I always got a pantheon at deity following this sequence. Maybe i got lucky everytime?

[Tabarnak]

Originally Posted by EEE_BOY

In your testings, how quick can you get to these techs if you beeline hard enough?

Turn 102-105. But with a lot of them

[Tabarnak]

I added a picture to show how making libraries after CBs looks like(immortal level), with a little extra

Hiwatha not beelining IW? Meh...with CBs added, just build 6-7 warriors before IW when you finish libraries and clean the whole continent!

[Greasy Dave]

Excellent tips. I'm going to use them to tighten up my 4 city start. My mind boggles when i read snarzberry got a tech victory at 230 turn though I was able to do that kind of finish at Deity in vanilla. I've only had time for one playthrough of G n K at immortal and could only manage turn 326. Anway, that's kind of off-topic.

I'm curious about your prioritising archers over shrines in your build order. What do you think about holy warrior as a source of units for the religious civs?

My single game experience (no time to play, alas) was at immortal with the mayans. I admit I was lucky, I was able to build my first 3 cities on desert river sites. By prioritising shrines in my cities I was able to get desert folklore after 20 turns (I think) and a religion maybe 20ish turns later. I had first dibs on enhancements and took Holy warrior. For the first half of the game, my army of fanatics spawned itself, while my cities concentrated on building libraries and the NC.

It was a lucky start, I admit. And not every game will throw up such riches

[peddroelm]

Originally Posted by Tabarnak

..
I always got a pantheon at deity following this sequence. Maybe i got lucky everytime?

cost to get pantheon goes up from 10 to 45 by 5 (35/5 = 7 AIs in normal game) each time an AI picks a pantheon (on deity this happens pretty fast..) ...In the video your shrine goes up in turn 27 ...

Worst case scenario (no other sources) you get to pick Pantheon by turn 27+45 = 72 ...I've seen AI's enhance religions by that time... It is still quite unlikely that you won't find any extra faith during this time but it did happen to me a few times ...

[Erneiz Hyde]

So...this went well the first time I tried it because even though Harald was neighbor he's reasonably apart and everybody else is on the other side of the continent. But the next time, I started right next to Darius and Oda (around 10-15 tiles away), I tried it anyway just to see what happens. As expected, everything went kaput pretty quickly

[ifinnem]

Originally Posted by peddroelm

cost to get pantheon goes up from 10 to 45 by 5 (35/5 = 7 AIs in normal game) each time an AI picks a pantheon (on deity this happens pretty fast..) ...In the video your shrine goes up in turn 27 ...

Worst case scenario (no other sources) you get to pick Pantheon by turn 27+45 = 72 ...I've seen AI's enhance religions by that time... It is still quite unlikely that you won't find any extra faith during this time but it did happen to me a few times ...

Its more than 1 shrine though right? So its more like turn 50-60ish

[peddroelm]

Originally Posted by ifinnem

Its more than 1 shrine though right? So its more like turn 50-60ish

Looking back on the video - his second shrine would be done in T63 ... 45 (max pantheon cost) by turn 63+ ((45 - (63 - 27)) / 2) = 67.5 (68) ...Can deity AI enhance religion by that time ? Not very often (AI enhanced in T65 during my last game) ... Even so -> paying full price for a Pantheon delays getting it so much (~ T68) minimizing the impact of its bonuses to the early game ...IMO Pantheon should be rushed so you can benefit from its bonuses longer (from earlier - also you get more picking options) ...

You can't move the first city shrine before the first worker as it would delay everything too much (unless you play the Maya) - but starting with it in the the second city and eventually chopping some woods if available for any of them might be beneficial ... (might even be worth it to buy it with in second city (not very / efficient but opening Pantheon early might make it worth it) if you settle second city on lux when playing the Mayans - it would delay the 3-rd city)