I'm way behind Korea in tech, what now?

[dthompson32]

I'm still playing this Mayan game, trying to beat it. This is the one where I lost a science victory to Japan by the skin of my teeth.

Turns out, one of the other Civs that was knocked out early last game is Korea. Well, he isn't knocked out this time, and is the leader in every category. So here is the situation.

1) I'm playing as the Mayans, and past turn 200 now.
2) I'm on a small continent with the French and Greeks. They have been very aggressive the entire game, and have lost dozens of units trying to assail my positions.
3) My territory is guarded by three passes through mountains, so I am unassailable. I can hold them off with a much smaller force indefinitely.
4) This is a Continents Plus map, so all the CSs are on their own continent or islands.
5) The other continent is a long way away, the logistics of an invasion make it unlikely to succeed.
6) Korea has an *11* tech lead on me. He just came into the Modern era while I just came into Industrial.
7) Espionage to steal one of his techs takes 45 turns.

So here are my options as I see them:

1) Take out the French and Greeks and turn their cities into puppets. Maximize their gold output, while making a beeline for Globalization. I ignore the bottom half of the tech tree and try to get the UN built. Use the puppets to make gold, while doing CS quests. Try to win a Diplo victory. Taking out the French and Greeks shouldn't be too hard, I have cannons and they don't.

2) Restart and focus harder on getting my BPT up as early as possible. Try to hold my territory with a smaller force while focusing on getting to higher techs.

3) Restart and rush to iron. I have a 6 iron next to my capital, so build 6 swords and a bunch of archers, then try to knock France and Greece out early. Then turn my attention to rapid growth and getting my Tech up ASAP.

My assumption is that there is no way to catch Korea when they have that much of a head start in tech. Domination is out since I would be taking riflemen against infantry. My only remaining path to victory is the UN, but I need a lot of cash to pull it off.

[The Pilgrim]

Here's a refreshing idea. Play a different map! You don't learn by replaying the same one over and over again while you're likely falling into same patterns and sub-optimal decisions that brought you to your current position. You learn by adjusting to various conditions.

[dthompson32]

Oh, I've considered that

But this is a really interesting map from a lot of perspectives, and I'm enjoying the challenge. It's pointing out to me a couple areas where I am weak (like managing my gold) and forcing me to learn more about those areas.

For example, I never appreciated the importance of city growth in a tall empire. I would always just go wide and overwhelm the opposition with massive numbers of units.

I don't think I've become Capt. Ahab quite yet.

[EDaddy]

Playing tall empires is fun! Most of my Civ5 games have been played tall! The main thing about tall empires is that you can get huge amounts of culture or science in a single city and hire a whole bunch of specialists. The main weakness of a tall empire is the gold production. You will have to rely on gold producing buildings more as well as trades from other civilizations.

As for Korea, ita with you on what you said! In most of my games with Korea, they always have a scientific advantage. However, you got to take Korea's UA into consideration. They get a science boost per turn for every specialist and great person improvment in the empire. Furthermore, they also get a one time science boost for every science building and wonder built in the capital! With their UA, you can see why they are ahead in science in every game they are in.

I just won an Ethopian culture victory and the main thing that got me the win was to focus on getting education ASAP. This allows you to get first dibs on RAs especially if you have alot of money to burn up! With that tactic, I was able to keep up in the science race even though India had more bpt than I did in the end. Also, try to build the Porcelain Tower World Wonder as well -- you do not want a rival civ (esp particular civs like Korea or Babylon) to get it at all!

[dthompson32]

Heh, that was when I knew I was in real trouble, Korea built the PT while I was researching the tech for it.

I've decided to restart and fix some items, like too many roads and a couple poor city placement choices. I have one city who's main role it to hold a pass. A citadel would be a better choice.

[Hambil]

Sounds like you are waiting too long to 'specialize'. You really need to decide pretty quick what VC you are after and start working toward it. If you are on the right tech paths (Education, Observatory [optional], Public Schools, Research Labs and you are building your National College in BC (earlier the better) you will surpass the AI in tech at some point, for example. The same holds true for other paths, but they probably all start with Education.

Get libraries, get the NC built as soon as possible, then get the techs you need to work your land, then finish getting education, is how almost all my games start no matter what my victory condition.

Another thing - Archery is now part of the tech path to Education so I usually just grab it first thing, so I can crank a couple archers out while I'm climbing the Education tech tree.

[The Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by dthompson32

Oh, I've considered that

But this is a really interesting map from a lot of perspectives, and I'm enjoying the challenge. It's pointing out to me a couple areas where I am weak (like managing my gold) and forcing me to learn more about those areas.

For example, I never appreciated the importance of city growth in a tall empire. I would always just go wide and overwhelm the opposition with massive numbers of units.

I don't think I've become Capt. Ahab quite yet.

Well... Considering it's like 4th thread your mention this map...
You can always save it for later. But like I said, it's very possible you fall into same patterns over and over again without even realizing it and thus can't progress. Fresh map and fresh look will break this cycle. It's up to you of course.
If you really want to compare different approaches on the same map, you should check out GotM section, as it was suggested by someone in other thread. It gives you a good and fresh perspective. Some games are even recorded and uploaded to Youtube. Although they were played in vanilla, still very informative.

[dthompson32]

Thanks Pilgrim.

I promise to stop obsessing over this map.

Yeah, I've looked at a lot of the Let's Play and GOTM threads to improve my play over the last few months. And I think you were right, I was getting locked into one sub optimal strategy. Last night I used the 4 city tradition opening that we've been discussing on the other thread and it worked pretty well. I forced myself to follow it exactly, despite how much I wanted to deviate. I was able to repulse a double DOW and then used my tech advantage in CBs to take out Greece. It's now turn 140 and I took the first French city (tactically very hard due to its position, took a lot of troops). We are equal in tech, but I have the larger army. Paris is next.

I'm pushing up to Education now, and have the tech lead. When this is over, I'll probably post something in Let's Play, then move on to a new map finally

[dthompson32]

Originally Posted by Hambil

Sounds like you are waiting too long to 'specialize'. You really need to decide pretty quick what VC you are after and start working toward it. If you are on the right tech paths (Education, Observatory [optional], Public Schools, Research Labs and you are building your National College in BC (earlier the better) you will surpass the AI in tech at some point, for example. The same holds true for other paths, but they probably all start with Education.

Get libraries, get the NC built as soon as possible, then get the techs you need to work your land, then finish getting education, is how almost all my games start no matter what my victory condition.

Another thing - Archery is now part of the tech path to Education so I usually just grab it first thing, so I can crank a couple archers out while I'm climbing the Education tech tree.

I think this is correct. I was spending too much time trying to set up my own little ideal 4 city country, and not pursuing a victory strategy.

I was also making some dumb mistakes like building too many roads and buildings that I don't need.

[dthompson32]

Moby Dick is dead. Science victory on turn 351.

I used Tab's 4 city strategy and took out Greece and France by turn 150. Then beelined up the tree.

Now to try someone new, like the Dutch.

[DavidCAD]

While the "logistics of an invasion" may be too difficult, what about a surprise nuclear attack? If the AI has settled their capital on the coast (or within 2-3 tiles depending on terrain difficulty) you can launch a Pearl Harbor attack on their capital with nuclear weapons and tanks (or destroyers if they are right on the coast). With the large seperation of continents it makes a quick counter nuclear strike difficult-to-impossible, you just need to hold one city surrounded by fallout (which hurts any attackers) while you take out any other capitals.

[Bibor]

Intercontinental invasions are difficult only if you don't have access to oil and a decent coastal city to produce ships from. The rest of the "difficulty" comes from players being hesitant to perform it, thinking it will take ages and that their units will become obsolete once they reach the enemy shores. The thing is, you need to only conquer one city. You can upgrade units from there.