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Old Jul 14, 2012, 10:58 PM   #1
GlobularFoody
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Anti-aircraft - how does it work?

I was just playing a game as Korea, and I had a Mobile SAM unit fortified in a citadel on a hill. So, of course the super-smart AI kept attacking that SAM every turn with 5 Great War Bombers. None of the bombers ever died and my SAM unit barely took damage every turn. But, I moved a tank nearby and the AI decided to bomb it instead, boom...bomber dead from SAM unit.

I've never understood how anti-aircraft units actually work, this latest episode just makes it weirder. So, I'm guessing that AA units are useless against aircraft that actually attack them, and good against aircraft that attack other units that are nearby, is that it? That doesn't make any sense but that's what looked like was happening.
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Old Jul 14, 2012, 11:53 PM   #2
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They defend against 1 attack. I know fighters can get 2 "defends" with sortie promotion and I use them more often, myself because the range is better for intercept (AA is only 2 hex) so I don't know if there's an aa promotion for 2 defends.

edit: generally I put 1 or 2 fighters with my 4-8 bomber airforce. fighters get better area view.
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Old Jul 15, 2012, 12:08 AM   #3
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They defend vs 1 attack, and also worth noting, it is possible with fighters to "air sweep" your SAM safely and afterwards you can basically send as many bombers as you want. So yes, they can bomb them. It is worth noting that his bombers will still take some damage, and that SAM get 150% defense bonus so anything but Land damage upgraded bombers will really dent it.
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Old Jul 15, 2012, 12:35 AM   #4
dexters
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Can Atom Bomb be shot down by AA and fighters now?

I haven't seen it yet, but the unit still have 50% evasion against AA as base promotion.
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Old Jul 15, 2012, 12:58 AM   #5
GlobularFoody
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Originally Posted by Furycrab View Post
They defend vs 1 attack, and also worth noting, it is possible with fighters to "air sweep" your SAM safely and afterwards you can basically send as many bombers as you want. So yes, they can bomb them. It is worth noting that his bombers will still take some damage, and that SAM get 150% defense bonus so anything but Land damage upgraded bombers will really dent it.
I understand how air sweep works, but the AI didn't have any fighters. It just kept attacking my SAM directly with the bombers. When it tried to bomb the tank next to it, then the SAM killed the bomber. It should have killed or severely damaged one of those great war bombers per turn but it just sat there, doesn't make sense that AA doesn't work if its directly attacked like that. AA should slaughter any aircraft that attacks it, that's why they exist. Oh well, just another weird concept in a Civ game, not a biggie.
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Old Jul 15, 2012, 01:00 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlobularFoody View Post
I've never understood how anti-aircraft units actually work, this latest episode just makes it weirder. So, I'm guessing that AA units are useless against aircraft that actually attack them, and good against aircraft that attack other units that are nearby, is that it? That doesn't make any sense but that's what looked like was happening.
I'm not sure but, I'll take a guess:

As you did notice, the AA unit will defend itself against any and every attacker, much like any other unit. It'll deal some damage against the Bombers, and it has a +150% modifier against them.

But once in a turn, an AA can intercept an aircraft that attacks any units within 2 tiles. It can be a Bomber attacking another unit, a Fighter sweeping the area etc.

Thing is, I believe an interception attack is actually stronger than a direct one. In addition to the "Bonus vs Bombers/Helicopters (150)", the SAM get "Interception (100)". Perhaps this means it gets a +250% bonus, plus any other modifiers.

Also, when a Bomber attacks a Tank, the Tank defends itself and damages the Bomber. So the damage from the Tank defending + the damage from the SAM intercepting was much higher than the damage from the SAM defending itself alone.
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Old Jul 15, 2012, 01:10 AM   #7
GlobularFoody
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Originally Posted by Liex View Post
I'm not sure but, I'll take a guess:

As you did notice, the AA unit will defend itself against any and every attacker, much like any other unit. It'll deal some damage against the Bombers, and it has a +150% modifier against them.

But once in a turn, an AA can intercept an aircraft that attacks any units within 2 tiles. It can be a Bomber attacking another unit, a Fighter sweeping the area etc.

Thing is, I believe an interception attack is actually stronger than a direct one. In addition to the "Bonus vs Bombers/Helicopters (150)", the SAM get "Interception (100)". Perhaps this means it gets a +250% bonus, plus any other modifiers.

Also, when a Bomber attacks a Tank, the Tank defends itself and damages the Bomber. So the damage from the Tank defending + the damage from the SAM intercepting was much higher than the damage from the SAM defending itself alone.
The SAM got attacked about 5-6 turns in a row from 5 great war bombers, it really shouldn't have had to wait for the bombers to attack another unit before killing one of them, that's what I don't understand. The bombers obviously barely took any damage while attacking the unit that is supposed to directly counter them.

It confused the hell out of me because a few days ago, I was playing with America and had a B17 shot down in one hit from a SAM. I was expecting this SAM i placed there in the citadel to clean house on those bombers but they never died.
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Old Jul 15, 2012, 12:25 PM   #8
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A similar thing happened to me.

I fortified 4 units around a city with a ww2 fighter set to interception mode.

The AI kept throwing Great War Bombers at my units and the fighter didn't intercept at all and didn't gain any XP.
A few turns later, the AI built some Triplanes and I got the message that they attacked my fighter. I got the XP and they got properly damaged.

But why the hell didn't my fighter intercept those outdated bombers? Or don't your fighter gain experience from shooting them down? It was pretty annoying because it was a close game and I spent 1100 gold to buy it.
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Old Jul 15, 2012, 04:56 PM   #9
zande
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Fighters don't gain experience intercepting, I don't know why but it's always been like this
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Old Jul 16, 2012, 04:41 AM   #10
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Fighters don't gain experience intercepting, I don't know why but it's always been like this
Wow, that's stupid but thanks for the answer xD
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Old Jul 16, 2012, 04:51 AM   #11
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You need to rebase the fighter in a city within 4 (5?) hexes (I generally send a couple AA with my ground stuff if they're farther) and next turn give it "intercept command". They don't intercept if they have "just moved" (same with AA) and they don't intercept while commanded to "rest" or "rest until healed". As I mentioned before, sortie promotion allows fighters to intercept twice per turn, so 2 sortie fighters and 2 AA can pretty much deter AI from even trying.
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Old Jul 16, 2012, 06:20 AM   #12
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I can confirm that the AA works as stated, I watch a Siamese Triplane attack an Ethopian AA gun for five turns (did I mention I love spies, I can watch battles all over the world). Neither the Triplane or AA unit took much damage. Then the Ethiopians put a Great War Inf next to the AA unit, the Triplane attacked that, and got annihilated by the AA unit.

Maybe the AA gunners have been instructed "Don't shoot if you can see the whites of their eyes!"
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Old Jul 16, 2012, 11:28 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liex View Post
I'm not sure but, I'll take a guess:

As you did notice, the AA unit will defend itself against any and every attacker, much like any other unit. It'll deal some damage against the Bombers, and it has a +150% modifier against them.

But once in a turn, an AA can intercept an aircraft that attacks any units within 2 tiles. It can be a Bomber attacking another unit, a Fighter sweeping the area etc.

Thing is, I believe an interception attack is actually stronger than a direct one. In addition to the "Bonus vs Bombers/Helicopters (150)", the SAM get "Interception (100)". Perhaps this means it gets a +250% bonus, plus any other modifiers.

Also, when a Bomber attacks a Tank, the Tank defends itself and damages the Bomber. So the damage from the Tank defending + the damage from the SAM intercepting was much higher than the damage from the SAM defending itself alone.
That's a great analysis. But it's a dumb mechanic. I dunno, maybe if the SAM intercepted everytime it was attacked at full strength with full bonuses, maybe it would be too OP. But right now it so underpowered its almost useless.

Edit: for clarity

Last edited by hobbsyoyo; Jul 16, 2012 at 11:29 AM. Reason: for clarity
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Old Jul 19, 2012, 10:12 AM   #14
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The aircrafts are very powerful right now... imagine I play on huge map with abundant resources... In my last game I have like 33 oil and 19 aluminium (which is not much on "abundant"... an AI got 46 aluminium lol). I use a lot of bombardment... my ground troops were always low as number, in my civ games. So I will make like 6 Jet Fighters, 6 Stealth Bombers and 30 Bombers ! Add that to some Rocket Artillery bombardment + plenty of Missile Cruiser bombardment + cruise missiles if needed (I don't use nukes... I don't even need them)... and the AI is bassically screwed :P. I wish the AI could defend against that... they got plenty of resources too so why not ?
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Old Jul 19, 2012, 11:46 AM   #15
Malachi256
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This is a little OT, but is anyone else bothered by how powerful, from a melee/infantry standpoint, AA units are?

I kinda wish they had 2 AA attacks by default, but then were far more vulnerable to ground attacks.
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Old Jul 19, 2012, 11:55 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Malachi256 View Post
This is a little OT, but is anyone else bothered by how powerful, from a melee/infantry standpoint, AA units are?

I kinda wish they had 2 AA attacks by default, but then were far more vulnerable to ground attacks.
I would like to agree. To build/rush by several AA's and have your army still vulnerable to the city with 8 great war bombers . . .
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Old Jul 19, 2012, 12:00 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Malachi256 View Post
This is a little OT, but is anyone else bothered by how powerful, from a melee/infantry standpoint, AA units are?

I kinda wish they had 2 AA attacks by default, but then were far more vulnerable to ground attacks.
You know what, I've never actually used an AA in a melee role. In fact, they are so useless (I can't remember ever being attacked from the air, especially not effectively, in CiV) that I don't build them. I just keep the one's CS's give me and they sit there.

I know that WWI and especially WWII flak cannons were very effective anti-personnel/light armor guns....so maybe this is where the melee strength comes in. Although a patriot or sa-2 system (which the CiV unit resembles abstractly) would be pretty much useless in this configuration.
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Old Jul 19, 2012, 01:51 PM   #18
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The are very over-powered in the melee role. I would like to see their melee strength halved, then they could get some +100% vs aircraft promotion, to get them back where they are today, but make them vulnerable to contemporary melee units.
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Old Jul 19, 2012, 01:59 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by dac050 View Post
The are very over-powered in the melee role. I would like to see their melee strength halved, then they could get some +100% vs aircraft promotion, to get them back where they are today, but make them vulnerable to contemporary melee units.
Agreed.

I can't remember, but does this game have flak cannons and SAMs? I only remember SAMs.
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Old Jul 19, 2012, 02:02 PM   #20
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"Logistics" AA/SAMs would definitely up the challenge.

e: AA is flak.
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