City-State Leagues?

[Lockesdonkey]

In my head, I've been dreaming up a contemporary-world scenario, and one thing has started to bug me:

Canada.

It's a Middle Power. If the world were a game, Canada would not be "in it to win it". In other words, classic City-State. But it's also the world's second-largest country by area--having it be represented by one city state strikes me as rather preposterous.

So, in my imaginary scenario, I've dreamt up a solution: "Leagues" of city-states.

I'm figuring that these "Leagues" would have the following characteristics:

1. Territorial contiguity. They all have to border each other.
2. Diversity: I'm thinking you limit them to one each of Maritime, Cultured, and Militaristic, or possibly one each plus one more.

The advantage to the city-states would be mutual defense (duh) and possibly giving a discount to Civs for alliances--Get Three For the Price of Two And A Half, or something.

This isn't terribly well-thought-out, but I suspect it's worthwhile to discuss. So discuss.

[TheMeInTeam]

YES I approve, reintroduce minor civilizations <3. Minor civs, like in civ IV. They'd have to work differently than city states though.

[TravisATWA]

wtb vasals

[Peacemongerer]

Maybe make it so that you have influence pools with each member and with the entity as a whole. To be allies with the whole, you must be friends with a majority and have the most of anybody across the whole league.

[HeraldtheGreat]

One does not simply make a Canadian city state. One must either make a League of city states or a new Civilization!

All I know is that I'm sick and tired of people that just ignore Canada.Why is Canada not a civ? You could say that it was because they never really declared independence, but neither did Byzantium from western Rome. They always considered themselves Romans! I don't mean to be rude. Sorry about all the fuss.

[Furycrab]

It's an interesting concept, just a little insulted that the concept would be built on a perfectly viable Civ <.<

1867 is not the youngest.
It's certainly not the smallest in land mass.
Not the smallest in population. (In fact it's kinda up there, but that's not real fair comparing to ancient/classical civs)
Not the smallest in cultural/scientific impact.

/endrant

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Canada has already won: Its nice place to live. What else is required?

[Harv72b]

Originally Posted by HeraldtheGreat

All I know is that I'm sick and tired of people that just ignore Canada.Why is Canada not a civ?

Kevin Pollack had a few choice lines in "Canadian Bacon" about this.

[Ozymandias9891]

Another thing to note is that Sid Meier is Canadian, and yet...they aren't included as a Civ...

[HeraldtheGreat]

Originally Posted by Ozymandias9891

Another thing to note is that Sid Meier is Canadian, and yet...they aren't included as a Civ...

A fellow Canadian!

[Rex_Mundi]

Very good idea.

How would a league be formed?
- Would they form themselves, the CS that are close by eachother often want the other bullied.
- Would a player be able to form it, or contribute to forming it. I'm thinking espionage, or ally the lot, or maybe bully the lot to get them to band together as a response.

Originally Posted by Furycrab

It's an interesting concept, just a little insulted that the concept would be built on a perfectly viable Civ <.<

1867 is not the youngest.
It's certainly not the smallest in land mass.
Not the smallest in population. (In fact it's kinda up there, but that's not real fair comparing to ancient/classical civs)
Not the smallest in cultural/scientific impact.

/endrant

Definately not the population part, look at the added European civs pop. My guess (without knowing much about Canada) is the cultural/scientific impact thing.

[Naokaukodem]

Interesting suggestion, that could be seen as a first step into the direction of rise and fall of civilizations, but with existing mechanics.

City states leagues could share science and all other aspects of the game, so it would become a kind of new civilization.

Stay to be determined how they would league, as mentionned before.

[Ozymandias9891]

Originally Posted by HeraldtheGreat

A fellow Canadian!

Indeed!

[hobbsyoyo]

Would you select leagues as an option on start up?

I could see problems where if you don't reduce the number of CS to take into account having a couple of big leagues, you are going to have an overly crowded map. Plus, just think about the truly massive carpet of death a 3 city CS could spawn, with each unit doing it's shuffle dance, hogging the map and melting your processor.

If you do take away some CS's to account for the league, then you have to put a lot of though into how diplomacy and domination mechanics.

Do you pay triple to ally a leauge? Does Austria pay triple to annex it? Do you get triple votes in the UN, do you have to capture all 3 cities for a domination victory?

I'm actually not against this idea, I think it's kind of neat. There's just a lot of issues I can see with it and no one to my knowledge has suggested any answers. I don't have any good ones in any case.

[Peacemongerer]

Originally Posted by hobbsyoyo

Do you pay triple to ally a leauge? Does Austria pay triple to annex it? Do you get triple votes in the UN, do you have to capture all 3 cities for a domination victory?

I'm actually not against this idea, I think it's kind of neat. There's just a lot of issues I can see with it and no one to my knowledge has suggested any answers. I don't have any good ones in any case.

Well domination doesn't require conquering CSes, so we're cool on that front. Austria would concievably maybe just be able to steal individual cities in submenu or something away from the league.

The UN votes is the trickiest issue and could be solved by having each CS keep track of influence with civs like normal individually, while the ally benefits are granted by whoever has the most influence throughout the league. The individual CSes would then do their own UN votes as normal, except that if an individual CS would otherwise abstain, it instead votes for the league ally.

[hobbsyoyo]

Originally Posted by Peacemongerer

Well domination doesn't require conquering CSes, so we're cool on that front. Austria would concievably maybe just be able to steal individual cities in submenu or something away from the league.

The UN votes is the trickiest issue and could be solved by having each CS keep track of influence with civs like normal individually, while the ally benefits are granted by whoever has the most influence throughout the league. The individual CSes would then do their own UN votes as normal, except that if an individual CS would otherwise abstain, it instead votes for the league ally.

Thanks for the domination call, that was a total dumb thing on my part.

As far as your suggestion for the UN votes, what you suggest could potentially mean a player would have to pay for 3 more CS's to get all the votes of the league. And if you don't take out additional CS's to accomodate the league, then you have to pay for those as well. Also, I find having Austria be able to buy off parts of a league kind of defeats the purpose of the league, though it may have to be this way for balance.

Couple more questions:
Do you get 3 times as many culture, great peoples, and other bonuses from allying a league?

What did the 2nd poster mean by minor civs in CIV? Vassals, colonies?

What to do about a massive carpet of doom a CS league could spawn?

[HeraldtheGreat]

Originally Posted by hobbsyoyo

What did the 2nd poster mean by minor civs in CIV? Vassals, colonies?

He may also have meant minor civs in the CIV version of RFC. The "independant nations".

[GiuseppeIII]

Very cool idea I doubt Francis would ever add this though. To lazy to get off their a**s and something the communtiy actually wants. Would be a super cool mod though

[hobbsyoyo]

Originally Posted by HeraldtheGreat

He may also have meant minor civs in the CIV version of RFC. The "independant nations".

RFC? Is that a mod?

[HeraldtheGreat]

Originally Posted by hobbsyoyo

RFC? Is that a mod?

Yes, as in Rhye's and fall of Civilization, CIV version. there were minor civs and city-states for civilizations that were not represented like Jerusalem and the Celts and the Swahili city-states. Minor civs were also used as place holders for civs who collapsed due to instability of their empire, a mechanic part of the mod. This mod came with the Beyond the Sword expansion, but had to be downloaded seperately for other versions of CIV.