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Old Aug 16, 2012, 09:49 AM   #1
Grendeldef
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Tradition vs Liberty opening

As most of us I've been quite happy about the viability of tradition in G&K and I've used it far more often than liberty. Lately, though, I've been wondering if there's any logic behind the decision of chosing between those or do I just follow a plan laid out before rolling a map.
The only factor I've noticed I've used as a basis of decision making is the proximity of neighbours. The more space I have more likely I'll start with liberty but tradition seems to be the standard opening regardless of VC. Unless there's a reasonable space for 5+ cities I'll tend to start with tradition.

So how is it with others ? Tradition over liberty or vice versa but more interestingly why ? Just a gut feeling or some logic behind it ? Honor doesn't seem appropriate for anything but a very specific start.

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Old Aug 16, 2012, 10:00 AM   #2
Aoxomoxoa
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As liberty devotee for long time, I think now (certainly at immortal and deity) that Tradition provides a much stronger foundation for the long game. It seems like when I get to turns 75-100 that I am in as strong a position with regards to cities and expanding as I would be with liberty, but my capitol is bigger, I have more defense and I find myself preferring this position. If I need to get a city out quickly I can usually nickel and dime my way to the 500 gold and buy that first one if it's a rush to get to a sweet spot. I miss that golden age and the GP, but I have turned to Tradition as the main starter.
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Old Aug 16, 2012, 12:01 PM   #3
Syntax Error
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Don't underestimate the +1 production given by one of Liberty's policies (representation, I think?) It allows newer cities to get infrastructure much faster, even if you;re not going for wide. Also, using Liberty in the mean time will allow you to abuse Legalism. And that's awesome. Imagine four cities getting Wats simultaneously as Siam. So many beakers saved!

Are free buildings (like Carthage Harbors or Tradition Finisher Aqueducts or Hanging Gardens Garden) also maintenance-free? Cause if that's the case, then that's a lot of GPT in one fell swoop!
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Old Aug 16, 2012, 12:07 PM   #4
kamikazees
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syntax Error View Post
Are free buildings (like Carthage Harbors or Tradition Finisher Aqueducts or Hanging Gardens Garden) also maintenance-free?
Yes, the culture buildings and aqueducts are truly free. You can even get the aqueducts before you have researched engineering, which is silly IMO.

I mostly open with tradition now and try to found 4 cities. I will go liberty if I want to found lots of cities, or am playing a civ with bonuses for founding lots of cities (Maya pyramids, or Carthage/Arabia trade routes, for example).
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Old Aug 17, 2012, 09:44 AM   #5
Fragamemnon
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I feel like I really need good syngergy with a UB/UA to get behind Liberty on Deity.

Just having the land isn't enough. With a lot of land I could just take the best land and go four city opener w/ Tradition, expand once after NC into five cities, and still be way ahead of where Liberty would have me unless the powerful UA/UB kicked in.

My biggest complaint w/ Liberty is the extra turns it takes to get the science up to four-city tradition's level after they get the NC built on time. The midgame tech rate is just atrocious w/o massive excessive happiness and worker turns to ensure that your empire can go "wide-tall" fast.
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Old Aug 17, 2012, 09:50 AM   #6
JamesCivFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragamemnon View Post
I feel like I really need good syngergy with a UB/UA to get behind Liberty on Deity.

Just having the land isn't enough. With a lot of land I could just take the best land and go four city opener w/ Tradition, expand once after NC into five cities, and still be way ahead of where Liberty would have me unless the powerful UA/UB kicked in.

My biggest complaint w/ Liberty is the extra turns it takes to get the science up to four-city tradition's level after they get the NC built on time. The midgame tech rate is just atrocious w/o massive excessive happiness and worker turns to ensure that your empire can go "wide-tall" fast.
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Old Aug 20, 2012, 04:08 PM   #7
Grendeldef
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After this very small sample it seems that like myself, peeps start with tradition unless something unspecific but very rare happens or it's decided before rolling the map. While the change in liberty tree wasn't too big on it's own the imporovement of tradition makes it generally superior and versatile enough for most starts.

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Old Aug 20, 2012, 08:14 PM   #8
GlobularFoody
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I've started using Tradition since G&K, it's a lot better than it was. I rarely, if ever, used it instead of Liberty in vanilla. The free culture building and aqueducts are too good to pass up, even more so for your capital as already having a monument doesn't count toward it. I don't really see any use for the Liberty tree anymore, workers are easily captured from CS so the free one isn't that great, and they set the free settler back a SP.
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