The benefits of avoiding bronze working

[Brennus.Quigley]

THE BENEFITS OF AVOIDING BRONZE WORKING

In a recent Strategy and Tips forum discussion about Serfdom, it came to my attention that I often times employ some techniques that are not well known. The reason my points were originally brought up in the Serfdom discussion is that I was making the case that sometimes I’ll get Feudalism before either Bronze Working or Code of Laws, thereby making Serfdom my first labor civic. The larger point, however, is that it can sometimes be advantageous to skip the entire metal tech path for awhile. Let me explain further.


1. BRONZE WORKING ADVANTAGES ARE NOT ALWAYS THAT ATTRACTIVE
All of the advantages of Bronze Working (Chopping, Slavery, Axemen, and access to the techs that are beyond it) are all map dependent. Granted, a lot of maps sync with Bronze Working, but not all. The less forest you have in your capital region or the less forest you want to chop (to keep their health benefits or you're plotting on a biology gambit for an early National Park), the less attractive chopping is. If you already have enough non-forested squares in your capital to improve and work, the less attractive chopping is. The less food surplus you have the less attractive slavery is. The more you want to grow your cities, the less attractive slavery is. If you are playing the default version of BTS with events on (i.e. slave revolts are possible), the less attractive slavery is. Axemen are also not always attractive. You could either find yourself in a peaceful situation where military units in general are not immediately needed, or you could conclude that you would be better off with a horse based army, an archer based army, an elephant based army, a catapult based army, or any combination thereof. Add to this the fact that you are not guaranteed to have either Copper or Iron at all. In addition, if you are not in a rush to explore the ocean, then optics is not really a priority. If you don't want to build the Colossus, then getting to Metal Casting early isn't a priority, etc. Of course, delaying Bronze Working for awhile does not mean that Chopping, Slavery, and the techs beyond it cannot be utilized later when the time is more appropriate, and when you may have higher populations (for more dramatic slavery surges), quicker chopping with serfdom (for more dramatic chop surges), and stronger units to surge out.


2. ALTERNATIVE TECH PATHS CAN BE MORE EFFICIENTLY ATTAINED BY AVOIDING BRONZE WORKING
If the tech that you want doesn't require Bronze Working, then it can most certainly be advantageous to avoid it. First, you won't have to expend any of your own research on the metals path. Second, your bulbing possibilities change when you forego the metal techs. While the Great Prophet and Great Artist bulb possibilities are not highly effected, the Great Engineer, Great Scientist, and Great Merchant bulbs are.


GREAT ENGINEER BULBS THAT BECOME AVAILABLE:
If one looks at the bulb tech order for Great Engineers, eliminates Bronze Working, everything after Bronze Working, and everything that requires Bronze Working, one will come up with the following list:

Mining
Feudalism
The Wheel
Masonry
Construction

Of note are Feudalism and Construction. So if you can pull off the Pyramids or Hanging Gardens (stone helps, and is a necessity on higher difficulty levels), you can use that first Great Engineer to bulb either one, with Feudalism being a personal favorite.

Feudalism Bulb: Early Vassalage, Serfdom, Longbows, access to Civil Service, and the ability to vassal a neighbor can be pretty good in some situations. The AI does seem to prefer this tech path, but bulbing it with an early Great Engineer will get you there well ahead of them (how many turns will depend on the difficulty level). Some situations where this may be ideal include: 1) if you are defending a hilled pass or you want to choke a neighbor with hilly terrain, early longbows fit the bill; 2) if you've boxed in a smaller AI and want to formerly vassalize them, a direct longbow rush on their capital should do the trick (you will want to be double their size and have them boxed in to make the capitulation stick). Longbows may no be the best units to rush, but they are certainly good enough to take out one or two cities, and that may be enough to get yourself an early vassal. And then if you do bulb Feudalism where do you go from there? If you're feeling peaceful you can get math and head up to Civil Service, although the fact that you've already attained a legal civic makes this not the most efficient path. If you have horses and want to get to Guilds for Knights, however, making sure your first 3 Great People are all Great Engineers can get you there quick. First bulb should be Feudalism. Then you should tech up to Metal Casting, chopping and slaving out forges in two cities. Run two engineers. Second bulb should be Machinery. Get Iron Working and avoid Mathematics. Third bulb can then be Guilds. Since Great Engineers take a while to generate, it helps to be Philosophical.

Construction Bulb: Since it only has about half the value of a full bulb, you will need to have a good reason to use a Great Engineer in this way. However, if you have elephants (and stone) and want to rush someone, researching Horse Back Riding and Mathematics while that first Great Engineer is being generated and then bulbing Construction can be a powerful play. You can then head over to Bronze Working and slave and chop out a bunch of War Elephants.

And, of course, rushing an early marble wonder can also be a strong move. It all depends on the specifics. But Bronze Working certainly isn't what facilitates that either. You got to get over to the appropriate tech that has nothing to do with Bronze Working.


GREAT SCIENTIST BULBS THAT BECOME AVAILABLE:
If one looks at the bulb tech order for Great Scientists, eliminates Bronze Working, everything after Bronze Working, and everything that requires Bronze Working, one will come up with the following list:

Writing
Mathematics
Education
The Wheel
Alphabet (BTS)
Philosophy
Paper
Aesthetics (BTS)
Sailing
Alphabet (Vanilla & Warlords)
Calendar
Liberalism
Agriculture
Masonry

The Education and Philosophy bulbs were already available (and are probably the most common Great Scientist bulbs). The Paper bulb is now there, but all you have to do for that is avoid one of the prerequisites for optics, not necessarily Bronze Working. What is of note, however, is that Liberalism is now much more easily bulbable. With Bronze Working you can get forced into Metal Casting, Iron Working, and Compass. All of those combined can be a significant distraction (1170 beakers, significantly more than Civil Service 800, Philosophy 800, or Paper 600). If you want to avoid Sailing and Calendar, you can bypass fishing as well, provided that you didn't start with it. That would have to make for the fastest path to being one turn away from Liberalism. Skip Bronze Working and skip Fishing. Some notes on this strategy: 1) The most powerful technologies that do not require Bronze Working are Military Tradition (Cuirassier rush), Constitution (further your scientific advantage), and Nationalism (Cultural victory). That makes them ideal and efficient technologies to snag with Liberalism while avoiding Bronze Working. 2) Since the Liberalism bulb is not a full bulb, you can use this technique to "lock" your Liberalism advantage in and then trade up the metal tech path to try to open up the tech that you want to get with Liberalism. If you want to Lib a tech that requires Bronze Working, delaying Bronze Working may not be a faster way to get there, but it will make it less likely that you lose the Liberalism race to an AI.


GREAT MERCHANT BULBS THAT BECOME AVAILABLE
If one looks at the bulb tech order for Great Merchants, eliminates Bronze Working, everything after Bronze Working, and everything that requires Bronze Working, one will come up with the following list:

Currency
Code of Laws
Mining
Constitution
The Wheel
Alphabet (BTS)
Pottery
Sailing
Paper
Monarchy
Civil Service
Agriculture
Writing
Mathematics
Mysticism
Priesthood
Divine Right
Nationalism
Calendar
Horseback Riding

Code of Laws is now available with a bulb (with Bronze Working you might be forced into Metal Casting). This may be attractive if Confucianism is still available, although there are more efficient ways to get to Code of Laws if that is your #1 priority. One such scenario where this might make sense if you invested into a Sailing/Great Lighthouse strategy and find yourself with a Great Merchant and Confucianism still available. You may also get a Great Merchant from the Temple of Artemis and find yourself in a similar situation. You need to either tech Currency or avoid both Alphabet and Mathematics for this to work. Sometimes isolated starts without Stone or Marble are ideal for both The Great Lighthouse and founding a religion. Utilizing this bulb may allow you to have both.

Civil Service is a high value bulb and Bureaucracy can be an early game priority. To get there as efficiently as possible, you will want to go (or start with) Agriculture, Mining, The Wheel, to Pottery, to Writing, to Mathematics, to Currency, to Code of Laws (not the Priesthood route). Caste System will open up that Great Merchant for you. If you don't have good seafood resources, avoid Fishing if possible, as that can block off Sailing. Avoid Priesthood and Monotheism, as that will block off Monarchy. Pick up Alphabet somehow. Avoiding Bronze Working is almost necessary to do this early on as Pottery is a requisite (although Pottery could be blocked off if you avoided both Agriculture and Fishing, assuming you have some Deer resources or Oases for early food. That would allow you to do this without avoiding Bronze Working, but still blocking off Metal Casting).

Nationalism is also more directly bulbable, although you would need to have a good reason to want to get there so quick. Having Bronze Working would force you into Metal Casting, Machinery


3. SOME COMMENTS ON TECH TRADING

Some experienced players reading the first version of this article have noted that not self-teching Bronze Working and "actively avoiding Bronze Working" are two different things. While they may be able to see the benefit of focusing one's early research elsewhere on the tech tree, they question the value of actively avoiding it since it can be picked up rather easily in a trade. First, depending on your path, there are lots of other non-Bronze Working technologies that you can trade for (Calendar, Construction, Monarchy, etc...) and possibly broker. Second, less trading with the AIs can sometimes be the better strategy. By trading with them, you are advancing them and, most importantly, guiding them up to the best spots on the tech tree. It can be better to let them meander trying to acquire all of the low level technologies with each other while you shoot up and guard one specific valuable tech path. Getting into a powerful position does not always come from accumulating all the technologies that exist, especially if that means you are helping the AIs do so as well. Instead, the goal for some types of maps is to get technological separation with AIs. I have personally noted a significant difference in the AI tech pace when I do and do not actively trade with them.


4. SOME COMMENTS ON FORESTS

Avoiding Bronze Working means that you cannot chop forests for a while. Most people think of late game benefits of forests (lumber mills, forest preserves, and the National Park) and decide that they come too late to be useful for them. However, forests have significant early game benefits as well, specifically health points to let you grow your cities and defensive bonuses to help you fight off invaders. Most people worry about invading forces using the forests for defensive purposes while they advance on your cities, but 1) forests cannot be pillaged, so don't worry about a stack actually hanging out in one; and 2) you can use it for defense even better than the invaders. The most important forest tiles for you to defend are the ones directly adjacent to your cities or the ones that are on a pass into your territory. Make a fort there, and fortify some of your own units there first.

Be aware though that if you are not chopping forests, they can spread. This can be good or bad. To avoid the bad, be sure to improve tiles next to forests that you don't want the forests to spread to. The good is that there will be more forests to chop mid-game if you avoid chopping them in the early game. Chopping is essentially a production surge. Surging out settlers, workers, or military units early on can make sense sometimes. But it can also make sense to delay your chopping surge until Education, and use those forests to surge out your 6 universities and Oxford as soon as possible. Or delay chopping those forests until Military Tradition or Gunpowder so that you can chop out some more advanced units.


5. UNLOCKING ONLY ONE LABOR CIVIC

There are three early labor civics available (Slavery, Caste System, and Serfdom). Unlocking only one and then continuing up the tech tree can be an efficient way to steer your research. Decide what type of civilization you are and then push yourself up the tech tree as far as you can. Note that the first technology that requires both Bronze Working and Feudalism is Guilds. The first technology that requires both Bronze Working and Code of Laws is Democracy. All three are required for Corporation. Before those three technologies, however, there is little need to double up on the labor civic technologies.


6. CONCLUSION

Bronze Working with its chopping, whipping, and (possible) Axemen is often times great early, just not all the time. If you want to get to any mid-tier technology that doesn't require it as soon as possible, you might be best off skipping it for a short or long while, depending on the specific situation. This can be true if you are going a peaceful science route (Constitution), a peaceful cultural route (Liberalism and Nationalism), or even a warmonger route (Military Tradition and/or Gunpowder). The overall point is that it is sometimes best to layoff the Bronze Working for awhile. Not only can it be good strategy, but your populations and forests will also be appreciative! Good times.


(Thanks to all those who provided helpful feedback on the first version of this article.)


Test Games:

So far two maps have been posted. Both generated a lot of discussion:

Delayed Bronze Working Map #1 (Immortal). Others did fine researching Bronze Working early.
Delayed Bronze Working Map #2 (Deity). Only the OP was able to beat the map via delaying Bronze Working.

[spaced]

Originally Posted by Brennus.Quigley

Note that the techs that unlock Cuirassiers (Gunpowder and Military Tradition) do not require Bronze Working (although you will need some iron, but can easily get Iron Working without a problem by that point).

Huh? As you say, you do need iron to actually produce cuirs, and IW requires BW. So you'd have to trade for IW/BW at least, which is maybe what you meant, but it seems odd to say that MT and Cuirs don't require the metalworking techs, since you can't ignore them by that point.

[Brennus.Quigley]

Originally Posted by spaced

Huh? As you say, you do need iron to actually produce cuirs, and IW requires BW. So you'd have to trade for IW/BW at least, which is maybe what you meant, but it seems odd to say that MT and Cuirs don't require the metalworking techs, since you can't ignore them by that point.

No conflict here. I never said that you don't need iron for Cuirassiers. What I am suggesting is that the warmongers out there can pursue a very nice tech path for them that doesn't require Bronze Working for a very long time. That's all. No harm in getting Bronze and Iron Working eventually. They'll be easy to trade for. If going for Riflemen or Grenadiers, you actually could wait until after gunpowder and a turn away from lib to get Bronze Working. I can edit these points and clarifications in.

[UnforcedError]

I think I'll give your strategy a go anytime I see starting stone and no forests. If you can generally beat the AI to Feudalism this way (as you said in the Serfdom thread), then this might be a good strategy on some select maps (for a horse / siege based vassaling conquest, most of the time). It's true that you don't always have any use for CoL however you would most of the time want CS early. I guess I'm just too much used to chopping and whipping. On a Pangea-type map I'd sometimes beeline Alpha with good starting techs + good starting position if I see that all opponents will trade techs at cautious. It's tough to hold off on BW for even that long! Around what turn would you usually get Feudalism (assuming non-IND and non-PHIL)?

[krikav]

Personally, I often experiment with leaving bronzeworking out.
Sometimes one can pull of a oracle-CoL gambit and stay in caste-system for example.

One reason to avoid BW, is because it's quite expensive, and if you want to rush something else, it can pay of to skimp on it.

However... It's not THAT expensive, and the benefits from BW are numerous.

* Able to see where copper is enables:
- More long-sighted dotmap-planning.
- Able to better predict your opponents moves likely moves.
(Also worth mentioning, is that copper is a 6-yield tile. The best civ4 has to offer!)

* Chopping
- Able to clear of good areas, such as grassland hills and riverside grassland.
- Access to alot of hammers instantly.

In short, I think that you are over-emphazising the benefits from skimping BW!
The wast majority of players seem to take BW for granted, and you are right to point out that this isn't necesserily the case. But I think you are going abit to far, when you speak about liberalism-bulb possibilities.

[krikav]

I think this is a suitable map to try the oracle-CoL strategy:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=452510 (Nobles club 90, Napoleon)

You start with agriculture and the wheel. And you have access to alot of food.
The pressence of several forested plains-hills also make it possible to get access to hammers without the need to mine/chop.

You can get ivory/gold quick, and you are charismatic. So this city can get up to size 9 quite easily!

[Brennus.Quigley]

Originally Posted by UnforcedError

I think I'll give your strategy a go anytime I see starting stone and no forests.

Awesome. I would just add that there doesn't need to be "no forests". Few forests that you want to chop immediately would be my threshold.

Originally Posted by UnforcedError

then this might be a good strategy on some select maps (for a horse / siege based vassaling conquest, most of the time).

Yes, it is a good play in that situation. And Feudalism is a prerequisite for Guilds and Knights, so you can keep enhancing that horse-based army of yours. Try to get a second great engineer out of your wonder city (now helped by a forge) to bulb Machinery.

Originally Posted by UnforcedError

I guess I'm just too much used to chopping and whipping.

That seems to apply to almost everyone! But I'm pretty confident that the game was designed for players to explore alternative tech paths!

Originally Posted by UnforcedError

Around what turn would you usually get Feudalism (assuming non-IND and non-PHIL)?

Would love to have an exact answer for you as it is a good question. I've been playing a lot of Sitting Bull, Frederick, and Joao lately (not saying they're the best—just been playing with them), none of which can help me answer that question. Thinking Bull and Frederick are great for any bulb strategy, but they are philosophical. With Joao, going with machinery is attractive as carracks are one of his advantages. If I can sit down with the game soon, I can try to get you an exact answer.

Originally Posted by UnforcedError

On a Pangea-type map I'd sometimes beeline Alpha with good starting techs + good starting position if I see that all opponents will trade techs at cautious. It's tough to hold off on BW for even that long!

Yes, I've seen that play. You can get a lot of wars and bad relations started early that way!

Originally Posted by krikav

Personally, I often experiment with leaving bronzeworking out.
Sometimes one can pull of a oracle-CoL gambit and stay in caste-system for example.

If I got marble, I'll often do the same. But I personally never go for the Oracle without marble.

Originally Posted by krikav

One reason to avoid BW, is because it's quite expensive, and if you want to rush something else, it can pay of to skimp on it.

However... It's not THAT expensive, and the benefits from BW are numerous.

* Able to see where copper is enables:
- More long-sighted dotmap-planning.
- Able to better predict your opponents moves likely moves.
(Also worth mentioning, is that copper is a 6-yield tile. The best civ4 has to offer!)

* Chopping
- Able to clear of good areas, such as grassland hills and riverside grassland.
- Access to alot of hammers instantly.

In short, I think that you are over-emphazising the benefits from skimping BW!

I wouldn't disagree that Bronze Working can have many benefits and can be a great early play if the map is right for it. As I state, "a lot of maps sync with Bronze Working," and, "Bronze Working with its chopping, whipping, and Axemen is often times great." As to the copper tile, you might have one, you might not. That's not a guaranteed benefit of Bronze Working. And of course I could point out the benefits of non-Bronze Working techs like Code of Laws, Feudalism, Civil Service, and others. The question is which benefit do you want to acquire first? If you don't chop early, you can still chop later. That's a one time benefit. And the chopping can be better later with math (more yield) and serfdom (more efficient workers). I agree that if you have a lot of forested grassland hills or forested riverside tiles that you want to improve and work, then Bronze Working starts to be the better play. I'm just saying that's not the case on every map. I'm not one to reroll the map when I don't like it. I'll play every map through and am more concerned about my "percentage of wins" rather than "my highest score". My main point to players is that they should enter the game with an open mind about their tech path, and then go with Bronze Working only if the map is appropriate for that play.

Originally Posted by krikav

The wast majority of players seem to take BW for granted, and you are right to point out that this isn't necesserily the case. But I think you are going abit to far, when you speak about liberalism-bulb possibilities.

Thanks for the first point. But why is getting to Liberalism more efficiently not a significant thing? Most people chasing Liberalism will bulb education and philosophy, but have to self-tech liberalism. This play allows you to partially bulb liberalism as well. If you're trying to get there first (and many players are), that's certainly an advantage.

[Mylene]

Nopes i often partly bulb Lib, you only need Compass and MC.
No machinery blocks Optics & Co.
Granted that Forges are great anyways, i would never think about leaving out BW for that.

[Brennus.Quigley]

Originally Posted by Mylene

Nopes i often partly bulb Lib, you only need Compass and MC.
No machinery blocks Optics & Co.
Granted that Forges are great anyways, i would never think about leaving out BW for that.

I'll give you two points, but not the third (and most significant):

1) You're correct that not having Machinery is sufficient to block the Optics line (not to mention the Engineering line and the Printing Press line).

2) Therefore you're also correct to point out that there is more bulbing of Liberalism than I gave credit for. I'll be happy to make corrections to both.

3) But you're wrong that going with Bronze Working means that you are only burdened with getting Compass and Metal Casting out of the way in order to bulb Liberalism. In fact, you're burdened with getting Bronze Working (120), Iron Working (200), Metal Casting (450), and Compass (400) out of the way. That's a total of 1170 beakers. That's considerably more than either Civil Service (800), Philosophy (800), or Paper (600). So you go Bronze Working early, but by the time you get around to going for Liberalism I already snatched it and its free tech.

And to your last point. Yes, Forges are nice buildings: +25% hammers, -1 Health, and an engineer slot. But that wasn't free. It cost you 570 beakers to get Bronze Working (120) and Metal Casting (450) and 120 hammers to build the forge. But what if, because of my particular map and situation, a +25% hammer boost isn't my priority? What if I am more interested in getting a science boost and all the other benefits that come with Writing? What if I was more interested in a gold boost and all the other benefits that come with Currency? What if I am more interested in both a +50% production AND +50% commerce boost (aka Civil Service)?! I'll get there faster foregoing the Metal line. There are benefits, boosts, and multipliers all over the tech tree. Identify the one that is the biggest priority for you and go for it. Sometimes that means the metal line. Sometimes it doesn't.

Let me ask you: Do you really think it's good advice to go for Bronze Working early on EVERY SINGLE MAP? Do you ever do that and then find out that no matter how much you killed off your citizens, chopped down your trees, built forges, and trained armies of axemen that you just couldn't pull out a victory? In such a case, do you really think that the problem was the map itself?

[Mylene]

I cannot answer your last question, sorry. I only play Deity besides gotm or so, where your without doubt partly interesting tactics will not work

[Brennus.Quigley]

Originally Posted by Mylene

I cannot answer your last question, sorry. I only play Deity besides gotm or so, where your without doubt partly interesting tactics will not work

Haha, did you just try to pull rank rather than answer the question or make a logical counter argument?

I will acknowledge that if you go Bronze Working early on Deity every game and end up winning a decent percentage of your games, then you are obviously very skilled at utilizing the Bronze Working tech path, probably because you practice it so much. The maps that you win these days are the ones where your highly developed Bronze Working skills are matched by a map that syncs with that particular approach to the game. But when you don't win, you probably just blame the map rather than acknowledge that your whole approach could have been more adaptive to the realities of the terrain on which your civilization originated. And since you have reached the conclusion that it is ALWAYS best to go with Bronze Working early, you are 1) constantly improving your Bronze Working approach to the game; 2) never taking the opportunity to develop alternative approaches to the game; and 3) thus not qualified to say that such alternative approaches cannot deliver a victory on Deity since you personally are no good at such approaches.

In conclusion, I wish you many future capitals with long rivers running through plentiful forests with a handy source of bronze nearby, since I'm sure that's what you consider a "good start" to be!

[Zx Zero Zx]

You would make a great comedian. Avoiding the best civic in the game just so you can bulb better with Engineers? Have fun trying to ever get more than 3 cities on Deity by not having Slavery!

[Mylene]

I was not kidding
Most of what you write here just won't work on Deity, you can believe me or not i dun care.
Or just show us, should be entertaining.

[UnforcedError]

Originally Posted by Zx Zero Zx

You would make a great comedian. Avoiding the best civic in the game just so you can bulb better with Engineers? Have fun trying to ever get more than 3 cities on Deity by not having Slavery!

Then again the OP was not argumenting against BW in general he was just trying to present a strategy to use when whipping / chopping would not benefit you enough.

[Zx Zero Zx]

Originally Posted by UnforcedError

Then again the OP was not argumenting against BW in general he was just trying to present a strategy to use when whipping / chopping would not benefit you enough.

But the strategy itself is a joke. There are so few many times where you don't want to chop, and even less where you don't want to whip. This article is by another low difficulty player who thinks they have found something new in a game that is like 8 years old that all of the many Deity players haven't already thought of. There have been many more articles like this before, but this one is far to thought out for not thinking about why BW is the best tech in the game.

[Brennus.Quigley]

Originally Posted by Zx Zero Zx

You would make a great comedian. Avoiding the best civic in the game just so you can bulb better with Engineers?

Again, it's not the best civic every game. And again, it's not "just so you can bulb better with Engineers". That's only a viable option if you have stone. I find it funny that you and Mylene resort to oversimplifying arguments in order to argue against them. Not really up to taking on the real argument, huh?

Originally Posted by Zx Zero Zx

Have fun trying to ever get more than 3 cities on Deity by not having Slavery!

"Ever?!" Turns out there's a lot about the game you can still learn! For instance, as long as I'm not trying to rush my first setter over to some copper resource, I can often times position my second city in a strategic location to culturally block off quite a lot of land.

Originally Posted by Zx Zero Zx

But the strategy itself is a joke. There are so few many times where you don't want to chop, and even less where you don't want to whip.

No, there's very few times when YOU, as a Bronze Working addict, don't want to chop and whip. There's quite a lot of times that I, as a more versatile player, don't want to chop and whip.

Originally Posted by Zx Zero Zx

This article is by another low difficulty player who thinks they have found something new in a game that is like 8 years old that all of the many Deity players haven't already thought of.

So Immortal is "low difficulty"? Or are you just being dismissive to avoid taking on the actual argument? Actually, I've been playing for about 15 months now and have now won my last 7 immortal games, never rerolling completely random fractal maps, so I'm actually feeling pretty good about my skills at the moment, and will be happy to step it up to Deity once I finish this Joao II peaceful space race victory that's on its way. Sorry to challenge your Bronze Working dogma.

Originally Posted by Zx Zero Zx

There have been many more articles like this before, but this one is far to thought out for not thinking about why BW is the best tech in the game.

You're still not getting it. It's precisely because I've thought this stuff out that I argue against a Bronze Working approach for EVERY SINGLE map.

Originally Posted by UnforcedError

Then again the OP was not argumenting against BW in general he was just trying to present a strategy to use when whipping / chopping would not benefit you enough.

Exactly. But we can't expect everyone to be open-minded and analytical, can we? Some people just don't like their dogma challenged.

[Mylene]

Just have to keep things realistic here
Serfdom = bad, would be good very early but not when you get Feuda.
Vas helps with attacking but longbows hardly do..
And CS, besides not being that good with Rep. also gets unlocked by Caste which has great benefits with Pyras.

Biggest weakness of this strat : while only fitting into niche situations, there are most likely still better tactics.

[Zx Zero Zx]

Originally Posted by Brennus.Quigley

Again, it's not the best civic every game. And again, it's not "just so you can bulb better with Engineers". That's only a viable option if you have stone. I find it funny that you and Mylene resort to oversimplifying arguments in order to argue against them. Not really up to taking on the real argument, huh?

Umm, Slavery is going to be the best civic in the game about 95 cases out of 100. What advantages besides better Eng bulbs are there? You can save beakers instead of getting cities? I don't see how that will ever be a good plan. On Deity you WILL get stuck on 3 cities with out BW. Hampering your expansion will hurt your research a lot more than skipping BW will help it.

Originally Posted by Brennus.Quigley

"Ever?!" Turns out there's a lot about the game you can still learn! For instance, as long as I'm not trying to rush my first setter over to some copper resource, I can often times position my second city in a strategic location to culturally block off quite a lot of land.

This is very doubtful. I have 700+ of games won on IMM, and Deity. So I can tell you for certain that unless you have a triple 6 food start good luck not chopping out a settler at size 3. If you don't pump out that settler at size 3 you are going to be extremely delayed in your expansion, and if there is any number of AI close to you they will have every single spot filled by 1 AD if you don't speed expand. The reason Deity players rush out the first settler at size 3 is not really 100% for copper, it is much more for the fact that you need to keep up halfway with the AI or you will lose.

Originally Posted by Brennus.Quigley

No, there's very few times when YOU, as a Bronze Working addict, don't want to chop and whip. There's quite a lot of times that I, as a more versatile player, don't want to chop and whip.

So you are saying because you play super starts that don't need to chop, and whip that you are a better player? This is very doubtful.

Originally Posted by Brennus.Quigley

So Immortal is "low difficulty"? Or are you just being dismissive to avoid taking on the actual argument? Actually, I've been playing for about 15 months now and have now won my last 7 immortal games, never rerolling completely random fractal maps, so I'm actually feeling pretty good about my skills at the moment, and will be happy to step it up to Deity once I finish this Joao II peaceful space race victory that's on its way. Sorry to challenge your Bronze Working dogma.

There is a very very large leap from winning on IMM 7 times to winning on Deity consistently.

Now you are using dogma wrong. Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, or a particular group or organization. It is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted, or diverged from, by the practitioners or believers. Although it generally refers to religious beliefs that are accepted without evidence. Now Bronze Working is not a belief it is a simple cold hard fact with lots of evidence to support it.

Originally Posted by Brennus.Quigley

You're still not getting it. It's precisely because I've thought this stuff out that I argue against a Bronze Working approach for EVERY SINGLE map.

You may think you are the first to think about this, but you aren't the first. There have been many other people who argue that something is better than what ALL of the Deity players do with out evidence, but in the end nothing changes. The new players are wrong, and the Deity players who have played a lot more than the new players are still right.

[pigswill]

I guess the obvious solution would be for Brennus. Quigley to play one of the IU games (of which there are plenty) to directly compare the non-BW strategy against the games that have already been posted. Its pretty easy to make assertions one way or another but the most compelling argument is evidence.

[Brennus.Quigley]

Originally Posted by Zx Zero Zx

What advantages besides better Eng bulbs are there?

1) A more efficient, focused tech path if one is trying to get elsewhere on the tech tree. 2) Better bulbing opportunities with Great Scientists and Great Merchants. Did you even read the whole article, or did you just stop at the part about stone and the Great Engineer bulb?

Originally Posted by Zx Zero Zx

I have 700+ of games won on IMM, and Deity.

Congratulations. I'm convinced that you are very skilled at the early Bronze Working approach and usually win when the map syncs with that approach.

Originally Posted by Zx Zero Zx

So I can tell you for certain that unless you have a triple 6 food start good luck not chopping out a settler at size 3. If you don't pump out that settler at size 3 you are going to be extremely delayed in your expansion.

You can actually build a settler earlier than size 3. And that second city can block off a lot of land.

Originally Posted by Zx Zero Zx

So you are saying because you play super starts that don't need to chop, and whip that you are a better player? This is very doubtful.

I'm not saying I'm a better player. I'm saying I'm more versatile. And I'm not playing "super starts". I'm playing every start.

Originally Posted by Zx Zero Zx

Now you are using dogma wrong. Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, or a particular group or organization. It is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted, or diverged from, by the practitioners or believers. Although it generally refers to religious beliefs that are accepted without evidence. Now Bronze Working is not a belief it is a simple cold hard fact with lots of evidence to support it.

Haha. You just proved that I'm using dogma right! You and your Bronze Working addicted friends have an established belief that early Bronze Working is always the way to go and you don't like that belief challenged. In fact, you're so convinced of your dogma that you call it a "cold hard fact". Hilarious.

Originally Posted by Zx Zero Zx

You may think you are the first to think about this, but you aren't the first.

Please send the link to the previous strategy article on avoiding Bronze Working. Thanks. All I've seen is someone ask about how to bulb Feudalism with Sitting Bull early and some Bronze Working addicts tell him it's not viable.

Originally Posted by Zx Zero Zx

There have been many other people who argue that something is better than what ALL of the Deity players do with out evidence, but in the end nothing changes. The new players are wrong, and the Deity players who have played a lot more than the new players are still right.

Ah, the dismissive thing again. That's more like it. I actually thought you were trying to engage in the discussion for a moment there.