Keeping the Game Challenging

Here is a rough timeline of an ideal C2C game where its challenging throughout the game. Note that all games can deviate from this in their own way. However this timeline is made to help us tweak the game so to bring some challenge even in late game.

Note the important game setting for this are;

- Perfect World 2f - So you can have an old world and a new world plus realistic map generation.

- Minor Civ - So you start out at war with all other civs and have to work up to peace.

- Revolutions On - So its harder to keep larger empires.

- Usable Mountains - So they can be barriers in the beginning of the game and not later.

- Terrain Damage - So Polar and Arid terrain types can block movement through damage.

Now for the Era breakdown ...

Early Prehistoric
- One City with Slow Growth
- Cannot Found other Cities
- Animals and Neanderthals are Dangerous
- Hard to Keep a City Healthy and/or Happy
- Cannot Conduct Diplomacy

Late Prehistoric
- Limit of 3 to 6 Cities
- Land Grabs
- Thieves and Rogues
- Still Cannot Conduct Diplomacy
- Risk of Revolution from Over Expansion
- Barbarians Cities
- Possible Grab for a Religion
- First Sea Exploration and/or Expansion
- Key Resources of Horse / Camels / Elephants

Ancient
- Limit of 6 to 10 cities
- Still Land Grabs (depends upon map size)
- Can finally conduct Diplomacy
- Boost from Farming
- Still Thieves and Rogues
- Still Barbs unless all land has been Grabbed
- Risk of Revolution from Over Expansion
- Grab for a Religion
- Possible Sea Warfare
- Fight Disease and Plagues
- Key Resource of Copper

Classical
- Limit of 12 to Unlimited cities
- Late Grab for a Religion
- Possible Religious Wars
- Still Rogue Type Units.
- Possible Wars Over Land
- Possible Sea Warfare
- Fight Disease and Plagues
- Key Resource of Iron

Medieval
- Wars Over Land since you cannot leave the Old world yet.
- Still Rogue Type Units.
- Possible Sea Warfare
- Fight Disease and Plagues

Renaissance
- Can finally leave the Old World and explore the New World
- Land Grab for New World
- Risk of Revolution from New World Colonies
- Still Rogue Type Units.
- New Barbarian and/or New Civs
- Ocean Sea Animals (ex. Giant Squids)
- Can Pass Over Mountains
- First Air Units
- Key Resource of Sulphur

Industrial
- Race for Electricity and Significant Production Boost
- Still Rogue Type Units.
- Possible Still land Grabbing New World areas.
- Risk of Revolution from New World Colonies
- Threat of uncontrollable Air and Water Pollution
- Key Resource of Coal

Modern
- Threat of Nuclear War
- Threat of Air and Water Pollution
- Threat of Global Warming
- First Space and Lunar Exploration
- Key Resources of Oil and Uranium

Trans-Human
- Threat of Air and Water Pollution
- Threat of Global Warming
- Can Finally leave the Planet
- Land Grab of Lunar Terrain
- Risk of Revolution from Off-world Colonies

Early Galactic
- Can Terraform and reverse Global Warming and Pollution
- Land Grab for Asteroid Mining
- Land Grab for Mars Terrain
- Risk of Revolution from Off-world Colonies

Late Galactic
- Can Finally Leave the Solar System
- Land Grab for Galactic Territory
- Risk of Revolution from Off-world Colonies
- End Game Alien Invasion
- Can Travel through Wormholes and Foldspace
- Race for Final Achievements such as Ascension Gates and Trans-Dimensional Ships

So as you can see at any point you could become a powerhouse and steamroll other civs. The post at risk seems to be the Medieval era since there is not always a place to expand to. Hopefully things like the disease system can balance things out in this era and cause larger cities to get plagues and stuff to put the breaks on their steamroller so other civs can catch up and still be around for later eras.

Note if you do manage to take over all the old world then there is at least the new world. However I think to make the game have longevity the over seas colonies will need to be harder to maintain. Be it maintenance and/or revolutions. Same goes for the later expansions to the Moon, Mars and beyond.

Please give your feedback on how to keep the game challenging throughout the course of the game.

PW3 is IMO a better mapscript than PW2. That said, I think the main thing that needs to change to stop the steamroll is the Techdiffusion algorithms, currently they don't do much if one person is way ahead of everyone else.

Well the important part of the map is that there is an Old World and a New World. That way the ocean acts as a barrier to keep you from expanding too far to fast.

EDIT: I was also thinking perhaps there could be a way that once one civ gets into space all civs can get into space. Much like the Nuclear side of the game where if one person discovers it all civs can get nukes.

I like this breakdown. And I think it should be maintained as we go. As I do some more playing through, comments by era may be forthcoming.

One thing to note already though: Bone (carcasses), Stone and Obsidian would be Early Prehistoric key power bonuses, Marble in the late Prehistoric and Ancient.

I refuse to use Perfect World 2f, I hate the result

- Minor Civ - So you start out at war with all other civs and have to work up to peace.

Click to expand...

There is more evidence for nations starting all at peace than at war. Also how can you be at war if you have not studied warfare. See a new diplomacy thread I am about to start so that this one does not get side tracked.

Edit BTW you say can conduct diplomacy in prehistoric and still can't conduct diplomacy in ancient.

@Dancing Hoskuld

But it still makes less sense that you can conduct diplomacy before you can talk and can block unit movement when at peace. Even if historically roaming tribes were more peaceful when confronted there was no way to arbitrarily block them from passing through your territory.

That's one reason why Minor Civs makes it more realistic since you can pass through all territory and cannot conduct diplomacy yet. The at war part just makes the game more challenging and thus another anti-stemroller technique.

Hydromancerx said:

@Dancing Hoskuld

But it still makes less sense that you can conduct diplomacy before you can talk and can block unit movement when at peace. Even if historically roaming tribes were more peaceful when confronted there was no way to arbitrarily block them from passing through your territory.

Click to expand...

See my diplomacy thread. Diplomacy now reduces the places you can go not cultural borders.

Hydromancerx said:

That's one reason why Minor Civs makes it more realistic since you can pass through all territory and cannot conduct diplomacy yet. The at war part just makes the game more challenging and thus another anti-stemroller technique.

Click to expand...

Minor Civs just makes the game boring fro the start.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

Minor Civs just makes the game boring fro the start.

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How and why? Isn't the threat of enemy units exciting? I would think peace would be boring, since you know your safe from the other civs. Also you could not explore as much if another civs borders is blocking you from exploring.

Hydromancerx said:

How and why? Isn't the threat of enemy units exciting? I would think peace would be boring, since you know your safe from the other civs. Also you could not explore as much if another civs borders is blocking you from exploring.

Click to expand...

Read my suggestions on new diplomacy other civs borders are not blocking you from exploration! Which reminds me I forgot about sea units.

This may be a decent Scenario but not The Way the mod "should" be played. But as a scenario how it Can be played.

Nor should the mod be made to only play on one Type of map, that being an earth like map. Please don't try to go back to C2C being realistic historically. It left that mode a long time ago.

I agree with DH on his point. You don't need Minor Civ to be under a threat. All it takes is an aggressive leader. And the Mod has Plenty of those.

Of your Important game settings I would only agree/use 1.

The mod can be and is challenging without these preferential restrictions imho.

Please do not design the Mod around these settings. But of course this has already been started and is kind of "after" the fact now isn't it.

JosEPh

JosEPh_II said:

This may be a decent Scenario but not The Way the mod "should" be played. But as a scenario how it Can be played.

Nor should the mod be made to only play on one Type of map, that being an earth like map. Please don't try to go back to C2C being realistic historically. It left that mode a long time ago.

I agree with DH on his point. You don't need Minor Civ to be under a threat. All it takes is an aggressive leader. And the Mod has Plenty of those.

Of your Important game settings I would only agree/use 1.

The mod can be and is challenging without these preferential restrictions imho.

Please do not design the Mod around these settings. But of course this has already been started and is kind of "after" the fact now isn't it.

JosEPh

Click to expand...

Hydro is just stating how many of us in our minds expect the mod to play out. There are always options, but we have to have a starting point somewhere, and this is what that starting point is.

@JosEPh_II

Could you post a timeline of the way you play so we can can use it as a comparison?

Hydromancerx said:

@JosEPh_II

Could you post a timeline of the way you play so we can can use it as a comparison?

Click to expand...

I think part of the issue is that not many people get past Medieval nowadays, which was an issue I aimed to address with my Gamespeed changes. So we don't really know how the mod plays in those eras or how it "should" play.

The only option listed that I use always is Usable Mountains. I also often use Revolutions. I never use the other options mentioned. So my mods are not designed for those options. BTW I never use Neanderthals either.

Early PrehistoricAncient
Classical

Hydromancerx said:

@JosEPh_II

Could you post a timeline of the way you play so we can can use it as a comparison?

Click to expand...

I can try. But it will be later tomorrow or Monday before I can post it.

JosEPh

Thanks.

I think part of the issue is that not many people get past Medieval nowadays, which was an issue I aimed to address with my Gamespeed changes. So we don't really know how the mod plays in those eras or how it "should" play.

Click to expand...

Well it's lucky I'm doing my lets play then. I aim to play to the end! It's good the long freeze is going on now because by the time you believe you have balanced beyond the midieval era I should be at that point. It's taken me 10 days to get to ancient so it should take no more than 2 months to get past the medieval era.

This time i played on a Large Map, usually its a Huge one, but see pics, on how i TEST.

Without all of these options, no offense, how do you know if they are going to work cohesive or not? Thats why i test as much as i can. This game so far i JUST got to Renaissance Era, and it took me 40 hrs 13 mins.

ls612 said:

PW3 is IMO a better mapscript than PW2. That said, I think the main thing that needs to change to stop the steamroll is the Techdiffusion algorithms, currently they don't do much if one person is way ahead of everyone else.

Click to expand...

the tech diff worked pretty well in v25. how do i change the tech diffusion in v26?

zeinul said:

the tech diff worked pretty well in v25. how do i change the tech diffusion in v26?

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It would be an SDK change. I'm going to look at it sometime this week.