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Old Dec 13, 2012, 08:44 AM   #1
Zwierzor
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Puppet Recalling to life

At the very moment reviving conquered civilizations to life is more of a "fancy thing you do because you're bored" than "good thing to mess with your rivals". Liberated civs, especially those conquered earlier in the game, got a huge technological backwardness (buying knights in info era). Along with having no military and having no economy they're literally unable to put a fight against barbarians, not to mention standing against whole world which for some reason quits current wars and decides to gank them.

I'd like to suggest either giving RECALLER an option to boost RECALLED with known technologies, or automatically push freshly-independed at similar level of technology to other civilizations (this is self-balanced by lack of economy, it will take some time for "new" civ to catch up with the rest of the world) or at least give them temporary boost to military production.

This suggestion is backed by written history - it does know many cases of countries gaining independence after many years, up from decades to millenias, but not a single case of sending mass produced pikemen against tanks in modern era.

Thank you for reading.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 10:14 AM   #2
BuddhaBubba
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I agree. This could be an opportunity for a vassal system to take place too. I think the only benefit right now is, like you said, the neatness of rescuing another civ and additionally I think you get their vote for the U.N.
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Old Dec 14, 2012, 06:56 AM   #3
Dentalfury
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Tech parity does make sense. I've never really liberated a civ before so I've never seen the results. And i too would like to see a vassal or client state system brought back into the game for Civs and CS's.
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Old Dec 14, 2012, 01:03 PM   #4
awesome
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Maybe revived civilizations could get the same technology as the most advanced civilization, or at least the civilization that did the reviving.
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Old Dec 14, 2012, 06:08 PM   #5
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Bring back the Colony. Please
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Old Dec 14, 2012, 06:21 PM   #6
Halcyan2
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The problem with tech parity is that the liberated civilization could end up turning against you. So it would be a disincentive if the liberated civ suddenly becomes too powerful (in case you want to destroy them after all).

I do think that the Espionage mechanic can significantly help them catch up.

I see liberating major civs as mainly a diplomatic thing. Maybe you want another vote for the U.N. Or maybe you want a third party civ as a buffer to a hostile or even friendly AI.

Oftentimes, one of the best ways to hamper an AI's army is to be at peace with them, but to have your units interfere with their units when they are at war.
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 01:11 PM   #7
awesome
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That's why a colony/vassal system would help. That would probably make the AI more likely to recall some civilizations, too.
An added, inherent bonus is that you'll actually know who's leading the recalled vassal, as opposed to the randomness from civ 4

Last edited by awesome; Dec 15, 2012 at 01:15 PM.
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 03:12 PM   #8
Zwierzor
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Wow, so many responds...mostly positive ones

I took liberty in cutting your post, Halcyan2:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halcyan2 View Post
The problem with tech parity is that the liberated civilization could end up turning against you.
That's the magic of diplomacy. If you'll care about them and help when needed, the chance that they will backstab you seems very low (of course there's also a 'backstab' factor for each leaders). In RL, countries are never liberated simply because citizens yearn to be free. All serves a certain purpose and help the liberator. I'll give few examples in a minute.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halcyan2 View Post
So it would be a disincentive if the liberated civ suddenly becomes too powerful (in case you want to destroy them after all).
As i wrote in opening post, liberated civs are not only weak technologically, but they often have no economy, no military, often no room to expand. Even with bonuses AI gets on higher levels it's gonna take too much time to become a threat to city-states, not to mention major rivals or a player...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halcyan2 View Post
I do think that the Espionage mechanic can significantly help them catch up.
I did not fully test this mechanic, but the later in game the more defensive options against spies are implemented. Even if so, it will take many, many turns for a civ just to catch up with 'global technology level'. The whole idea was to avoid getting in-game messages like 'Greece stole philosophy from Moscow!' in 1950.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halcyan2 View Post
I see liberating major civs as mainly a diplomatic thing.
I never played for diplo-victory. Not in Civ5, i did not. When i warmonger i revive civs to mess with their neighbours mostly, they do serve me as a shield or battlezone against stronger oponent (= no mess in your territory). Reviving and befriending a civ will give you an ability to boost your science (research agreement).
Not to mention that new civs annoys every single warmonger just by existing, giving you precious time.

Oftentimes, one of the best ways to hamper an AI's army is to be at peace with them, but to have your units interfere with their units when they are at war.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 07:27 PM   #9
thegingerninja
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I was playing Egypt and revived Byzantium from Bismarck. I got into some massive wars and gifted her the cities that i didn't want unhappiness from
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Old Jan 01, 2013, 04:00 AM   #10
78stonewobble
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I tend to agree with the op's suggestions.

Tech parity of sorts is needed if the liberated civ is to be, if not competition then atleast able to defend itself a bit.

Regarding whether the liberated civ should be able to turn on it's liberator. I think it shouldn't for a long while. So the act of liberating a civ and maybe even per city should be a major diplomatic positive modifier that will take something major to undo.

Making the civ a colony or vassal would be a somewhat less positive thing but how much, if at all, is up for discussion.



Right now my most immediate problem with liberation of civilisations is that you take a global diplomatic hit for being a warmonger.

In my recent game I liberated Madrid and Barcelona to keep Spain in the game. Then I got the warmongerer from several competing civs.

In retrospect it might have been a very smart AI move. If I remember correctly only big AI civs that had conquered lesser ones called me warmongerer (the irony) but maybe they were afraid I'd try to liberate their "belongings".

PS: I doubt the ai was that smart.
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Old Jan 07, 2013, 10:09 PM   #11
dashwinner
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I agree with OP.

In my most recent game, i liberated the maya, but soon enough attila and dido wanted to send them back to their grave. they managed to build a decent army, but pikes couldnt do much vs. artillery i even donated them their own upgraded artillery, but those silly mayans failed to place it in their city. I actually spent way too much time placing troops around their liberated capital to try and stop them from being taken out. It ended up being more of a burden than anything else. However,

The mayans LOVED me. first time i've ever had a defensive pact. They friended me whenever they could, and i gave them a little gold + sugar (which i had like 5 of) for an RA.

Still, it would have been nicer if i got all the diplomatic positifiers WITHOUT having to commit so much resources + troops to ensure that my RA would come to completion....
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Old Jan 08, 2013, 02:16 AM   #12
Argive
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I think the problem could be solved by allowing techs to be traded. If you really want to prop a civ up, you can gift them some techs. (If they take your gift and then sail to other waters, well, that's a risk you take, like any other. In fact, I think it would be really cool if recalled civs drifted away in time if their interests and their leaders' personalities called for it. Would make things more challenging and fun.)
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 06:24 AM   #13
alpha wolf 64
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whenever possible, when i liberate a civ, I give them as many fodder units as I can afford to give up. Its about the only way they can survive when the wolves come after them almost immediately.

I would think that old techs would be so cheap at that point that the revived civ can make quite a few advancements in a short time.
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