Babylon War Plan - Proposed one day before a turn chat

Goonie · Mar 23, 2003, 09:42 AM

Proposed one day before a turn chat, and becomes policy without a vote.

This greatly disturbs me! How this happened I do not know! I will leave this discussion here for a day, and after that, I might have to write a PI or two.

This plan has enormous consequences, and certain people made it policy in ONE day! There was not enough time given for people to oppose this plan!

Senator Goonie

Goonie · Mar 24, 2003, 04:05 PM

Does nobody really care?

Senator Goonie

Octavian X · Mar 24, 2003, 05:57 PM

You have to admit, Goonie, the plan was a fantastic success. A week ago, Babylon was the cultural envy of the world. Now, Babylon doesn't exist...

Strider · Mar 24, 2003, 07:50 PM

I would agree normally that it is against the constitution, but the way it sounds to me it was overwhelmlessly in approval and worked greatly.

Goonie · Mar 25, 2003, 05:48 AM

Oct. - I agree comepletely. It was a very well writen plan. I however did not support it! We could have saved babylon for our panzers. We should have attacked the USA! With those fertile cities, we would have been able to build our military machine more quickly!

@Strider - I didn't have time to oppose it because it was introduced without sufficent time.

FortyJ · Mar 25, 2003, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Octavian X
You have to admit, Goonie, the plan was a fantastic success. A week ago, Babylon was the cultural envy of the world. Now, Babylon doesn't exist...

This would surely become a dangerous precedent for evaluating the legality of one's actions.

However, if I'm not mistaken, the plan did have the backing of the Military Department and we were already at war with Babylon when it was implemented. It surely would have been better to have such a plan proposed at least 48 hours before the chat to allow for ample discussion. However, I for one, believe that a good plan, although late in posting, is still much better than no plan at all.

We should be applauding Chieftess for her contribution (especially considering the time it took her to compile all of that information and draft the plan in the first place). If we persist in condemning those that actually do the work necessary to ensure our victory in this game, then we risk finding ourselves without those dedicated individuals.

Noldodan · Mar 25, 2003, 08:48 AM

Hear, Hear!

Paalikles · Mar 25, 2003, 09:10 AM

I find both arguments of mr Goonie and mr 40j interesting.
We play a game of democracy - and IIRC the cornerstones of democracy is demos=people and cratein=rule -> the rule of people, or people rule (err...) Thus waiting just a little while longer allows for more citizens to participate and discuss the matters of the nation.

A good plan is a good plan. A good plan that actually works when used is even better. But as FortyJ points out - what if the plan had not worked as it did?

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought CivGeneral was minister of off...err defense. Chieftess is Trade leader, therefore a plan coming from her should require a poll - any thoughts on this, anyone?

Let us be careful to propose plans earlier from now on!

Chieftess · Mar 25, 2003, 09:38 AM

I was hoping that CivGeneral would post more comments on it, but he did incorporate it into the plan. Also, any citizen can make a thread about something. Now, if CG made me the military chat rep...

Paalikles · Mar 25, 2003, 09:49 AM

Yes - any citizens can make a thread....I suppose CG used your plan because you made the thread - which is of course a-ok.
The part I am more concerned about is the fast implementation of the plan.

*Paalikles wonders if he should start a citizen discussion on this

Eklektikos · Mar 25, 2003, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chieftess
Now, if CG made me the military chat rep...

It would change nothing. Chat reps have no jurisdiction in the fora, and no real powers in the chat if they already hold a leadership position as you do.

Chieftess · Mar 25, 2003, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eklektikos

It would change nothing. Chat reps have no jurisdiction in the fora, and no real powers in the chat if they already hold a leadership position as you do.

Can't you tell sarcasm when you see it?

Shaitan · Mar 25, 2003, 12:53 PM

I don't see a problem here. Only one plan was suggested. If a poll between some plan and no plan went up I would hope that some plan would win. In addition the plan did receive unanimous support in the thread and the endorsement of the Military Leader. Goonie says he didn't have enough time to abject to the plan. He also did not have time to craft a plan of his own. If he had done so then we could be having a discussion here. As it is I think the point is moot.

Octavian X · Mar 25, 2003, 12:58 PM

Now, had the plan failed utterly, I would see some reasoning to be up in arms. Fortunately, all went as planned. Let's drop this for now, and procede with cation to the Iroquois...

naervod · Mar 25, 2003, 01:06 PM

We should just drop it here. The action has been done, there is no changing it now. The timing of the plan was not the best, but it was sucessful and most people supported it. The Judiciary does not want to have a PI right now and we urge Goonie to not open any PI's, however if it is Goonie's wish, we will open the PI's.

Chieftess · Mar 25, 2003, 01:18 PM

Like Shai said, some plan is better than no plan. Would you have us delay playing another turn chat for weeks, possibly a whole term because we just can't decide on a good plan?

Paalikles · Mar 25, 2003, 01:25 PM

Note that I was trying to say that for the future, we should try to be more careful in regards to these kinds of situations. I have no problem with the plan, although I was not here to see it put forth myself

Chieftess · Mar 25, 2003, 01:37 PM

It also takes time to come up with a plan. And lately, we've been rather (well, for the past several months actually) lax on planning ahead.

Goonie · Mar 25, 2003, 02:39 PM

I have already congratulated Chieftess on the great plan. But although it was great, I did not aggree with it.

You have all said that A plan is better than NO plan, and I agree with fully with that statement. But a plan with SUCH enorm consequences(good or bad) should have at least had a Yes, No, Abstain poll.

For example. Let me bring up the infamous Plan A proposed by our fallen friend Donsig. If you must know, I opposed that plan as well. Plan A was not put in a poll against any other plan, it was simply put in a Yes, No, Abstain format. This could have been done fairly easily for this plan aswell.

I am not condeming Chieftess in any way. Infact, I applaud her for her detailed and well thought out work. I myself am completely swamped with homework and do not have time for such a plan. The problem that in this whole situation is not whether the plan succed or not. The problem is that a FANATIKAN CITIZEN - however against public opinion he may be - did have a far and equal chance to state his opinion and vote in a poll of whether or not to Accept this plan. What has been done creates a dangerous precedent for others in power and in the majority of public opinion to abuse their power. In a democracy, the rights of the miniority have to be respected and protected.

Senator Goonie

Chieftess · Mar 25, 2003, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Goonie
For example. Let me bring up the infamous Plan A proposed by our fallen friend Donsig. If you must know, I opposed that plan as well. Plan A was not put in a poll against any other plan, it was simply put in a Yes, No, Abstain format. This could have been done fairly easily for this plan aswell.Senator Goonie

So, what you're saying is, wait until someone comes up with another plan? What if no one wants, or can make another plan? Will we just let the demogame stall until someone comes up with a plan?

Mar 23, 2003, 09:42 AM	#1
Goonie Lonely End of the Rink Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Kingston Posts: 3,312	Babylon War Plan - Proposed one day before a turn chat Proposed one day before a turn chat, and becomes policy without a vote. This greatly disturbs me! How this happened I do not know! I will leave this discussion here for a day, and after that, I might have to write a PI or two. This plan has enormous consequences, and certain people made it policy in ONE day! There was not enough time given for people to oppose this plan! Senator Goonie

Mar 24, 2003, 07:50 PM	#4
Strider In Retrospect Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 8,976	I would agree normally that it is against the constitution, but the way it sounds to me it was overwhelmlessly in approval and worked greatly. __________________ We pen our fates on the parchment of time. While turning to pages yet unwritten. But do our stories end once the ink has dried? Are the echoes of history all that remain of the past? #454158

Mar 25, 2003, 08:48 AM	#7
Noldodan 2 years of waiting... Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Gondolin! Posts: 1,747	Hear, Hear! __________________ Join Ferion! Turn-based space strategy game, but different from Civ. Give it a try.

Mar 25, 2003, 09:10 AM	#8
Paalikles Emperor Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,536	I find both arguments of mr Goonie and mr 40j interesting. We play a game of democracy - and IIRC the cornerstones of democracy is demos=people and cratein=rule -> the rule of people, or people rule (err...) Thus waiting just a little while longer allows for more citizens to participate and discuss the matters of the nation. A good plan is a good plan. A good plan that actually works when used is even better. But as FortyJ points out - what if the plan had not worked as it did? Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought CivGeneral was minister of off...err defense. Chieftess is Trade leader, therefore a plan coming from her should require a poll - any thoughts on this, anyone? Let us be careful to propose plans earlier from now on! __________________ Economists do it with slutsky matrices Whomp for president

Mar 25, 2003, 09:38 AM	#9
Chieftess Moderator Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Baltimore Posts: 23,547	I was hoping that CivGeneral would post more comments on it, but he did incorporate it into the plan. Also, any citizen can make a thread about something. Now, if CG made me the military chat rep... __________________ "Never trust an Aztec with nukes!" (Civ1 - unknown) \| 2nd user of the Ancient Style. South America (based on El Mencey's Map) \| N & S America (based on El Mencey's Map) \| C3C Scenario: 7,000 Turns Civ2 Earth for C3C \| Old Style Civ3 for C3C \| "Future is Wild" map How to upload multiple files to a post \| File Upload \| Paint Shop Pro 3.11 shareware (screenshot util - doesn't expire) \| Chieftess' Culture Flip Calc \| Don't wind up like this AI! \| resource icons file To download a patch: Select "Advanced" from the main menu, and go to "Check for Updates". \|\| My Web Journal (yes, it's a "blog")

Mar 24, 2003, 04:05 PM	#2
Goonie Lonely End of the Rink Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Kingston Posts: 3,312	Does nobody really care? Senator Goonie

Mar 24, 2003, 05:57 PM	#3
Octavian X is not a pipe. Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: deceiving people with images Posts: 5,428	You have to admit, Goonie, the plan was a fantastic success. A week ago, Babylon was the cultural envy of the world. Now, Babylon doesn't exist...

Mar 25, 2003, 05:48 AM	#5
Goonie Lonely End of the Rink Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Kingston Posts: 3,312	Oct. - I agree comepletely. It was a very well writen plan. I however did not support it! We could have saved babylon for our panzers. We should have attacked the USA! With those fertile cities, we would have been able to build our military machine more quickly! @Strider - I didn't have time to oppose it because it was introduced without sufficent time.

Mar 25, 2003, 09:49 AM	#10
Paalikles Emperor Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,536	Yes - any citizens can make a thread....I suppose CG used your plan because you made the thread - which is of course a-ok. The part I am more concerned about is the fast implementation of the plan. *Paalikles wonders if he should start a citizen discussion on this __________________ Economists do it with slutsky matrices Whomp for president

Mar 25, 2003, 12:53 PM	#13
Shaitan der Besucher Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 6,546	I don't see a problem here. Only one plan was suggested. If a poll between some plan and no plan went up I would hope that some plan would win. In addition the plan did receive unanimous support in the thread and the endorsement of the Military Leader. Goonie says he didn't have enough time to abject to the plan. He also did not have time to craft a plan of his own. If he had done so then we could be having a discussion here. As it is I think the point is moot.

Mar 25, 2003, 12:58 PM	#14
Octavian X is not a pipe. Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: deceiving people with images Posts: 5,428	Now, had the plan failed utterly, I would see some reasoning to be up in arms. Fortunately, all went as planned. Let's drop this for now, and procede with cation to the Iroquois...

Mar 25, 2003, 01:06 PM	#15
naervod My current user title Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 5,327	We should just drop it here. The action has been done, there is no changing it now. The timing of the plan was not the best, but it was sucessful and most people supported it. The Judiciary does not want to have a PI right now and we urge Goonie to not open any PI's, however if it is Goonie's wish, we will open the PI's. __________________ "Dopo la letteratora e l'eros il calcio é uno dei grandi piaceri." -Pier Paolo Pasolini

Mar 25, 2003, 01:18 PM	#16
Chieftess Moderator Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Baltimore Posts: 23,547	Like Shai said, some plan is better than no plan. Would you have us delay playing another turn chat for weeks, possibly a whole term because we just can't decide on a good plan? __________________ "Never trust an Aztec with nukes!" (Civ1 - unknown) \| 2nd user of the Ancient Style. South America (based on El Mencey's Map) \| N & S America (based on El Mencey's Map) \| C3C Scenario: 7,000 Turns Civ2 Earth for C3C \| Old Style Civ3 for C3C \| "Future is Wild" map How to upload multiple files to a post \| File Upload \| Paint Shop Pro 3.11 shareware (screenshot util - doesn't expire) \| Chieftess' Culture Flip Calc \| Don't wind up like this AI! \| resource icons file To download a patch: Select "Advanced" from the main menu, and go to "Check for Updates". \|\| My Web Journal (yes, it's a "blog")

Mar 25, 2003, 01:25 PM	#17
Paalikles Emperor Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,536	Note that I was trying to say that for the future, we should try to be more careful in regards to these kinds of situations. I have no problem with the plan, although I was not here to see it put forth myself __________________ Economists do it with slutsky matrices Whomp for president

Mar 25, 2003, 01:37 PM	#18
Chieftess Moderator Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Baltimore Posts: 23,547	It also takes time to come up with a plan. And lately, we've been rather (well, for the past several months actually) lax on planning ahead. __________________ "Never trust an Aztec with nukes!" (Civ1 - unknown) \| 2nd user of the Ancient Style. South America (based on El Mencey's Map) \| N & S America (based on El Mencey's Map) \| C3C Scenario: 7,000 Turns Civ2 Earth for C3C \| Old Style Civ3 for C3C \| "Future is Wild" map How to upload multiple files to a post \| File Upload \| Paint Shop Pro 3.11 shareware (screenshot util - doesn't expire) \| Chieftess' Culture Flip Calc \| Don't wind up like this AI! \| resource icons file To download a patch: Select "Advanced" from the main menu, and go to "Check for Updates". \|\| My Web Journal (yes, it's a "blog")

Mar 25, 2003, 02:39 PM	#19
Goonie Lonely End of the Rink Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Kingston Posts: 3,312	I have already congratulated Chieftess on the great plan. But although it was great, I did not aggree with it. You have all said that A plan is better than NO plan, and I agree with fully with that statement. But a plan with SUCH enorm consequences(good or bad) should have at least had a Yes, No, Abstain poll. For example. Let me bring up the infamous Plan A proposed by our fallen friend Donsig. If you must know, I opposed that plan as well. Plan A was not put in a poll against any other plan, it was simply put in a Yes, No, Abstain format. This could have been done fairly easily for this plan aswell. I am not condeming Chieftess in any way. Infact, I applaud her for her detailed and well thought out work. I myself am completely swamped with homework and do not have time for such a plan. The problem that in this whole situation is not whether the plan succed or not. The problem is that a FANATIKAN CITIZEN - however against public opinion he may be - did have a far and equal chance to state his opinion and vote in a poll of whether or not to Accept this plan. What has been done creates a dangerous precedent for others in power and in the majority of public opinion to abuse their power. In a democracy, the rights of the miniority have to be respected and protected. Senator Goonie

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