New Victory Conditions

GustavAdolf270

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While I am extremely excited over the new cultural victory-I do have my concerns. I was wondering if the Utopia Project would still need to be completed. I hope so, otherwise the cultural victory could be completely passive. For example I could be aiming for a domination victory and all of a sudden with one civ left the Cultural Victory Screen would pop up-ruining my game. I could similarly see this happening with the diplomatic victory and the U.N. voting as it seems the U.N. wonder will not need to be built to start voting for a diplomatic victory. Any thoughts on the possibility of these two victories being incidental?
 
I'm confused by this post. The whole point of the new culture system (which I expect will jettison the Utopia Project) is to avoid the passivity of the previous version, which is more in line with what you seem to be complaining about. Now, it's virtually impossible for a cultural player to "suddenly" win, since they need to be actively gaining influence with everyone. I suspect with the more active World Congress, the Diplomatic Victory will be similar, especially given that there's a countdown to every vote and you're going to be actively involved in manipulating the voting. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question?
 
1) Utopia is gone. You want to talk about a passive victory? The Utopia Project was way more passive than what they are implementing. And it's not like it will sneak up on you. The whole tourism screen exists for you to monitor the cultural victory situation. There will probably be notifications too. Especially if your cities start the process of flipping.

2)We don't know specifically how the WC transitions into the UN. It won't catch you by surprise though. The voting screen will pop up every few turns and if the Diplomatic victory resolution comes up, you will know in advance.
 
What he's saying is that the problem with tourism is that if you are out conquering people old school, there is a risk of you losing due to your own military prowess.

Example: Egypt is owning the tourism game, but they are not even close to winning because Greece is a super culture. I take out the final greek city, wiping the civilization, or heck just take over some of their cultural centers, and before I can take Egypt's capital, Egypt wins a cultural victory due to my actions in a completely passive way.

It's similar with the diplomatic victory, if you wipe out civs there are less to stop the win vote, although for this one I don't think it's a problem because of city states.
 
I'm confused by this post. The whole point of the new culture system (which I expect will jettison the Utopia Project) is to avoid the passivity of the previous version, which is more in line with what you seem to be complaining about. Now, it's virtually impossible for a cultural player to "suddenly" win, since they need to be actively gaining influence with everyone. I suspect with the more active World Congress, the Diplomatic Victory will be similar, especially given that there's a countdown to every vote and you're going to be actively involved in manipulating the voting. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question?

1) Utopia is gone. You want to talk about a passive victory? The Utopia Project was way more passive than what they are implementing. And it's not like it will sneak up on you. The whole tourism screen exists for you to monitor the cultural victory situation. There will probably be notifications too. Especially if your cities start the process of flipping.

2)We don't know specifically how the WC transitions into the UN. It won't catch you by surprise though. The voting screen will pop up every few turns and if the Diplomatic victory resolution comes up, you will know in advance.

Also, he's worried because at least you had a fair warning about the Utopia project and the other Civ about to win a cultural victory...will they replicate such a thing with tourism?
 
What he's saying is that the problem with tourism is that if you are out conquering people old school, there is a risk of you losing due to your own military prowess.

Example: Egypt is owning the tourism game, but they are not even close to winning because Greece is a super culture. I take out the final greek city, wiping the civilization, or heck just take over some of their cultural centers, and before I can take Egypt's capital, Egypt wins a cultural victory due to my actions in a completely passive way.

It's similar with the diplomatic victory, if you wipe out civs there are less to stop the win vote, although for this one I don't think it's a problem because of city states.

I still don't see the problem. Do you neglect your cities because you are making war? Keep your culture up to snuff so no one's tourism dominates you. Or take out Egypt before finishing off Greece.
 
Also, he's worried because at least you had a fair warning about the Utopia project and the other Civ about to win a cultural victory...will they replicate such a thing with tourism?

From what we've seen, you can constantly monitor the tourism/influence levels with those you've made contact with, and my confusion comes from the fact that the new culture system seems almost specifically designed to be more obvious/visible/active, while I thought the problem with the Utopia Project was that it WAS kind of under the radar...
 
What he's saying is that the problem with tourism is that if you are out conquering people old school, there is a risk of you losing due to your own military prowess.

Example: Egypt is owning the tourism game, but they are not even close to winning because Greece is a super culture. I take out the final greek city, wiping the civilization, or heck just take over some of their cultural centers, and before I can take Egypt's capital, Egypt wins a cultural victory due to my actions in a completely passive way.

It's similar with the diplomatic victory, if you wipe out civs there are less to stop the win vote, although for this one I don't think it's a problem because of city states.

Actually, what I think he’s saying is that he could be striving for a Domination Victory, but still be accumulating Tourism & Culture. Then, just before he conquers the final capital to win by Domination, he inadvertently gains enough Tourism to trigger a Cultural Victory.

He still wins, but not by the Domination Victory he wanted. Currently, you could strive for a Domination Victory and complete 6 policy trees, but you’ll never win a Cultural Victory unless you actively build the Utopia Project.

At least, I think that’s what he’s saying.
 
Accidentally winning a cultural victory could happen on the way to a domination victory, I suppose. Accidentally winning a diplomatic victory won't happen though. If/when the diplo victory resolution comes up, you don't have to buy up all votes and win. You just have to make sure no one else manages to do that. Then a few turns pass, and you do it again.
 
I feel we don't know enough about the new systems yet to rule that out or in. My thoughts

Culture isn't something you spend and lose, so you will keep your culture level. So unless you completely kick Greece out of the game, Egypt would still need to surpass their high culture level. (from the example above).

Do we know for sure that you don't need to build the utopia wonder once you research the needed 'tourism vs. culture' levels?

Diplomatic Vote could have simply an option to not accept the election.
 
Why would a domination victory necessarily entail wiping people out? If you don't want wiping civs out to accelerate other victories, for you or for others, don't wipe civs out.
 
Example: Egypt is owning the tourism game, but they are not even close to winning because Greece is a super culture. I take out the final greek city, wiping the civilization, or heck just take over some of their cultural centers, and before I can take Egypt's capital, Egypt wins a cultural victory due to my actions in a completely passive way.

It's similar with the diplomatic victory, if you wipe out civs there are less to stop the win vote, although for this one I don't think it's a problem because of city states.
I don't see how that is passive. Wouldn't it be a direct results of your actions, and by extension, decision making? Passive is when you don't do anything. Taking war to another civ is an important decision that the player makes that has benefits & repercussions. Now there will just be another thing to consider.
 
What he means with passive is the fact that it could suddenly happen to you without you making to choise of making this victory. It has nothing to do with the overal cultural game which is either passive or active.

I think Utopia might be in... it would indeed be a secure system making sure:
a) if there is one small nation left you want to conquer for a domination victory that you, as you said, that you suddenly lose that domination victory in favor of a cultural victory.
b) make sure that you really are the strongest cultural player. We don't know the exact systems but what happens if two nations are just inches away from each other in cultural aspect and a player gets for a small turn the lead. Would that end the game immeadiatly without a change for its competitor to do something about it? The Utopia project would keep this from happening.
 
Actually, what I think he’s saying is that he could be striving for a Domination Victory, but still be accumulating Tourism & Culture. Then, just before he conquers the final capital to win by Domination, he inadvertently gains enough Tourism to trigger a Cultural Victory.

He still wins, but not by the Domination Victory he wanted. Currently, you could strive for a Domination Victory and complete 6 policy trees, but you’ll never win a Cultural Victory unless you actively build the Utopia Project.

At least, I think that’s what he’s saying.

Yes thank you, sorry I am not good at explaining in English. But this is my concern.
 
I feel like you need to actively cultivate tourism for it to be a problem, and if you're going for a domination victory, you'll have to be at war with everyone at some point, which drastically decreases your tourism. I would be really surprised if it was a real problem, especially since you'd also probably need to be producing/slotting great works and culture-oriented wonders/buildings, which, if you're hypothetically worried about this, you have little reason to do.
 
Yeah, as Nujabes said, you win cultural victory with Tourism, but you defend against someone else's cultural victory with Culture, which are two different (although somewhat linked) yields.

So if you are going for a Domination victory, you will probably still want to produce Culture (so that noone else beats you in Cultural Victory, and you let your borders grow and get Social Policies you want) but you will be unlikely to devote your time to generate a lot of Tourism - making it highly unlikely for you to win this way even if, at one point, there is only one or two civs left.

Winning a cultural victory requires you to actively create great works and search for artifacts with your archeologists - so saying this is passive is like saying that you win Scientific Victory passively by building space ship parts all over the place. ;)
 
As far as i can see both the Diplomacy and Culture victory's are now much harder to pull off but also much more rewarding for players going for that option.

Culture victory is now much more perilous, as it is a lot more open. This means it may be easier to disrupt a culture player, also it means that you can still play for the culture victory whilst still being able to go to war.

Diplomatic victory is no longer just a wait and hoard money and buy everyone of at the last second kind of deal, now you really have to work it, spreading your ideology, sucking up to city states, manipulating the World Council, bribing other players all will be need to get the 2/3 of delegates needed for the victory. But once again this is a lot more transparent, if someone is getting close to a diplomatic victory it is clear and they are options to rectify it.

I'm really looking forward to trying these out, and I wonder if they have worked on any of the other victory types.
 
I find MatThePhat summarizes the concern at the heart of this thread the best. Though it is not what GustavAdolf intended, this concern is real for me.

"If Egypt is influential to everyone and me but Greece, what's to stop Greece's elimination from deciding the game 'out of nowhere'?"

I thought about it and I believe there is little cause for worry, as I hope to justify in this post. A few points to start:

Assumption: Sources of tourism all also generate culture.
Result: A civ's tourism is always less than its own culture.
Result: A civ that "dominates" another, toward the culture victory, exceeds that civ in culture (as well as tourism over culture)
Result: There is a well ordering of cultural power in civs. Anything can happen, but there is no ambiguity as to whose got the math on their side at the present rate.​

Now suppose you are aiming for something other than a cultural victory, so your attention is not on the tourism bar all the time. Either you are coming close to cultural domination by one or more other civs, or you are not. If you're not, then keep it that way, no culture victory for Egypt. It's on you. If you are... you have some tough choices to make. It's your penalty for lagging culture.

On the flipside of your penalty, does the eminent civ player get a boon for boosting his tourism over these other players but not that last one? Wrong question. He is still a frenemy. Yet, he need only regard the remaining cultural holdout as his last threat, except to the extent you all want to war him. If the cultural holdout has comparative tourism, you have a game of Civilization on your hands - two runaways** the other civs cannot allow to succumb to the other, but must individually surpass, all while not being destroyed by each other. If the holdout has only defensive culture, this situation is, thankfully, impossible, because we know:

Fact: Large cultural yields will only be possible from Great works and Artifacts (culture building bonuses lowered), i.e., tourism sources.
Result: Cultural defenses large enough to survive tourism imply the presence of significant tourism. (*except for EXTREME late-found civs, but no map makes this possible)

It takes two civs to have this situation, and it's symmetric (except one of them is doing better, of course!) Egypt and Greece must both be tourist powers, and they've been cultivating it all game, and this makes a situation no different from Civilization in general, except for one worry. The central worry, given by MatThePhat, is how able are the "little civs" to pop the game, by destroying the Greece/Egypt even though they are dominated by the other, and will lose?

Will the cultural victory enable Kingmakers?

Spoiler :
Domination victory is just capitals only, so it's possible the game can hang in the balance if the cultural civ to be sacked maintains cultural output and his other cities. We are grateful it is difficult to forfeit a cultural stockpile, since that could make even such a toppled civ a Kingmaker.

So I went into a proof about why it would not happen, and I was confusing the cultural influence systems with the ideological pressure systems. :crazyeye:

We must hope that to the extent the cultural victory's exact rules present a threat of just such an endgame (or midgame?) scenario, they also impede, and slow, the ability of those influenced civs to carry out military conquest, on either a scale of eliminating an entire player, or of destroying his cultural defenses and giving the other player the game (including looting or razing his cultural buildings/great works). Of the first case, the inherent difficulty of a "complete kill" may need no assistance, but cultural assassination must be something the other civs, not to mention that rival cultural leader itself, can act to prevent in a reasonable timeframe.

I think the system is policed by the game's existing nature. If the endgame occurs, it is via the cultural eminence of one player, the failure to defend of another, the dominant military power of one player, aided by the first, but against all detractors, and the complete loss of the cultural race to that first player of everyone else. Victory was decided by players with power over those who faltered, no kingmaker.

**Culture is not a runaway like science. As far as we know, going to 100% influence does not remove your ability to build up culture and dig out, even to 99%, where you deny the cultural victory (and less ambiguously become public friend #1 of everyone else.) Second, the Apollo ship is a finish line, but culture is a moving finish line that you control, while great works and artifacts can be lost. And even if matching culture is futile overall, it doesn't tie into -everything- like science does.
 
I find MatThePhat summarizes the concern at the heart of this thread the best. Though it is not what GustavAdolf intended, this concern is real for me.

"If Egypt is influential to everyone and me but Greece, what's to stop Greece's elimination from deciding the game 'out of nowhere'?"

The answer is very simple: Do not let Egypt become influential over YOU. (The elimination of Greece does not really matter.)
 
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