Immortal Challenge 5 - Egypt

sufficiency · Apr 28, 2013

It's Sunday and I thought we should have a new Immortal Challenge. So here we go!

Pangaea, standard. NO DLCs beside Mongolia and Update Data 1.

Egypt's perks:

Monument Builder: 20% production bonus toward wonder production.
Unique Unit: War Chariot (Chariot Archer replacement; 1 extra movement, does not require Horse).
Unique Building: Burial Tomb (Temple replacement; no maintenance, +2 Happiness).

Egypt gets a lot of unfair criticism as a bad civ in the game. This is not true at all - in fact, Egypt is IMO one of the better civs out there. The most important thing about Egypt is not so much about its UA (which, in fact, is fairly useless on higher difficulies). The real perk about Egypt is its UB Burial Tomb, which replaces Temples. For the same production cost as a Coliseum, you get the same amount of Happiness, no maintenance, and +2 Faith per turn. War Chariots, which do not require horses, are also extremely strong - particularly for an Ancient/Classical Era rush on Immortal difficulty - because you can play aggressively without waiting for Composite Bowmen.

To this end, it is suggested that you play a wide strategy, ideally leading to a Domination or Science Victory.

The difficulty of the map is mediocre. You might find some annoying/dangerous neighbours, but a key feature of this map made the map significantly easier.

Unresolved · Apr 28, 2013

Hmm, looks more fun than IC3, that's for sure

. Unfortunately, I don't have much time to play right now. Too many tests...

Vintage Port · Apr 28, 2013

This could be a good choice for my first Immortal attempt. I have two more capitals to take in my Emperor game and I may give this a try tomorrow.

I'm a bit confused about your last statement though. Difficulty is mediocre? Like average for Immortal?

As for the suggestion going wide I'm not sure i would on my first immortal. Ill stick with my comfort blanket (tradition).

I don't want to fail. I still haven't lost a Civ 5 game. Lol

Edit: what do you guys think? Settle on the hill 2S?

Hmm maybe not. Might be a coast. Was viewing on my phone and didn't notice.

sufficiency · Apr 28, 2013

Vintage Port said:
This could be a good choice for my first Immortal attempt. I have two more capitals to take in my Emperor game and I may give this a try tomorrow.

I'm a bit confused about your last statement though. Difficulty is mediocre? Like average for Immortal?

As for the suggestion going wide I'm not sure i would on my first immortal. Ill stick with my comfort blanket (tradition).

I don't want to fail. I still haven't lost a Civ 5 game. Lol

Edit: what do you guys think? Settle on the hill 2S?

Hmm maybe not. Might be a coast. Was viewing on my phone and didn't notice.

Mediocre as in mediocre for an Immortal game.

Vintage Port · Apr 29, 2013

I'd like to move my warrior 2S to the hill to see what is down there but also want to move him 1 or 2 WNW to the hill to take a peek.

Initially looks like more food down south and get some nice river tiles.

hmm...

Lord Yanaek · Apr 29, 2013

sufficiency said:
The most important thing about Egypt is not so much about its UA (which, in fact, is fairly useless on higher difficulies).

I'd like to disagree on this. In fact, i think Monument Builder becomes better when the difficulty level increases (unless you consider Deity as a difficulty level rather than a PITA

).
Up to King, you can pretty much build any wonder you want (this does not mean every possible wonder every game, but if you want Great Library, you know you can have it). On Emperor and even more Immortal, you need to think ahead and tech fast to beat the AIs wonder building bonus. However, for early wonders, the AI starts ahead of you in tech. So the AI can often start GL sooner than you, and have a production bonus. That's why i rarely try to build GL on Immortal, i try only if i have a very nice start (such as Salt or lots of forests to chop down, Marble comes too late for GL).
Sometimes if i want a religion i'll try Stonehenge as it's often built slightly later than GL, but i've been beaten to it even researching Calendar before Writing. In this game i got both, with only a single forest cut (to build a plantation) and a liberty opening (and thus no Monarchy).
Try doing this with any other civ

That being said, War Chariots are nice and Tombs are great, but comparing them to Colesseum isn't entirely right as you need to have a Shrine too build Tombs, when you can build Colosseums right away.

sufficiency · Apr 29, 2013

Bob Morane said:
I'd like to disagree on this. In fact, i think Monument Builder becomes better when the difficulty level increases (unless you consider Deity as a difficulty level rather than a PITA ).
Up to King, you can pretty much build any wonder you want (this does not mean every possible wonder every game, but if you want Great Library, you know you can have it). On Emperor and even more Immortal, you need to think ahead and tech fast to beat the AIs wonder building bonus. However, for early wonders, the AI starts ahead of you in tech. So the AI can often start GL sooner than you, and have a production bonus. That's why i rarely try to build GL on Immortal, i try only if i have a very nice start (such as Salt or lots of forests to chop down, Marble comes too late for GL).
Sometimes if i want a religion i'll try Stonehenge as it's often built slightly later than GL, but i've been beaten to it even researching Calendar before Writing. In this game i got both, with only a single forest cut (to build a plantation) and a liberty opening (and thus no Monarchy).
Try doing this with any other civ
That being said, War Chariots are nice and Tombs are great, but comparing them to Colesseum isn't entirely right as you need to have a Shrine too build Tombs, when you can build Colosseums right away.

It's a fair point that Burial Tomb does require building a Shrine first, but I generally will build Shrines every city anyway so the requirement feels kind of moot.

Unresolved · Apr 29, 2013

sufficiency said:
It's a fair point that Burial Tomb does require building a Shrine first, but I generally will build Shrines every city anyway so the requirement feels kind of moot.

If I'm not going to get a religion, then I'll usually only have a shrine in my capitol.

guinsoo · Apr 29, 2013

Unresolved said:
If I'm not going to get a religion, then I'll usually only have a shrine in my capitol.

Yeah but I think if you're playing Egypt and going wide and ignoring religion you're doing it wrong.

@ Bob - I would never go Stonehenge over Hagia Sophia... higher chance losing the wonder + it's not as good... and it's not even clear it's faster... and it will really slow down your build.

Also: Shrine + Burial Tomb costs 140 hammers, provides 3 faith, 2 happy, and 1 maintenance.

Colosseum costs 100 hammers, provides 2 happy and 1 maintenance.

Add in either 1 happy from Shrines or 2 happy from Temples, and this starts to be an extremely attractive, efficient use of your hammers.

Unresolved · Apr 29, 2013

guinsoo said:
Yeah but I think if you're playing Egypt and going wide and ignoring religion you're doing it wrong.

@ Bob - I would never go Stonehenge over Hagia Sophia... higher chance losing the wonder + it's not as good... and it's not even clear it's faster... and it will really slow down your build.

It's not that I don't want a religion. But considering that Egypt has no faith boost, I need either good faith terrain, a natural wonder, or luck with religious CS to get a decent religion going. If I have none of that, then trying to make a religion work is just wasted production/gold/time.

guinsoo · Apr 29, 2013

Unresolved said:
It's not that I don't want a religion. But considering that Egypt has no faith boost, I need either good faith terrain, a natural wonder, or luck with religious CS to get a decent religion going. If I have none of that, then trying to make a religion work is just wasted production/gold/time.

I guess maybe it depends what difficulty you play on? I am not a deity player. But I have no trouble founding a religion on immortal if I want one. And especially with Egypt, founding a religion "the old fashioned way" provides other perks, more happiness.

I don't disagree with you that a religion is a lot easier to found with a pantheon, NW, or religious CS or hut. But especially playing as Egypt, I think there are options. Either Shrine/Burial Tomb it up with shrine/temple perks, or rush for Hagia with your production bonus.

Unresolved · Apr 29, 2013

guinsoo said:
I guess maybe it depends what difficulty you play on? I am not a deity player. But I have no trouble founding a religion on immortal if I want one. And especially with Egypt, founding a religion "the old fashioned way" provides other perks, more happiness.

I don't disagree with you that a religion is a lot easier to found with a pantheon, NW, or religious CS or hut. But especially playing as Egypt, I think there are options.

I play on Immortal with some Deity dabble. I know that a religion can always be founded on Immortal, but many times it's simply not worth it. If I can't generate enough fpt, then someone else will just run my religion into the ground. Not worth it unless you can get a decent foundation in my opinion.

guinsoo · Apr 29, 2013

Unresolved said:
I play on Immortal with some Deity dabble. I know that a religion can always be founded on Immortal, but many times it's simply not worth it. If I can't generate enough fpt, then someone else will just run my religion into the ground. Not worth it unless you can get a decent foundation in my opinion.

I guess that's where I disagree with you. I think that especially with Egypt, snagging a "second tier" religion is still good because of your innate Temple boost.

And, I've found in the past that my religion can survive despite massive pressure from opposing religions. My 2 border cities in one game were at about ~24 of my pressure and ~60-70 pressure from a neighboring religion. A single missionary held the religion in my cities for about 100 turns with 1 charge each. I never finished that game, so I didn't see how it played out at the very end. Maybe I was just getting really lucky. Shrug. I had taken Holy Order for cheaper missionaries, thinking I'd need to spam them out to keep my religion up. As it turned out, I was able to send 8-10 missionaries off to convert Germany, Sweden, and England for a massive Tithe boost, and only needed a couple missionaries to maintain the home front. I was very pleasantly surprised.

Unresolved · Apr 29, 2013

guinsoo said:
I guess that's where I disagree with you. I think that especially with Egypt, snagging a "second tier" religion is still good because of your innate Temple boost.

And, I've found in the past that my religion can survive despite massive pressure from opposing religions. My 2 border cities in one game were at about ~24 of my pressure and ~60-70 pressure from a neighboring religion. A single missionary held the religion in my cities for about 100 turns with 1 charge each. I never finished that game, so I didn't see how it played out at the very end. Maybe I was just getting really lucky. Shrug. I had taken Holy Order for cheaper missionaries, thinking I'd need to spam them out to keep my religion up. As it turned out, I was able to send 8-10 missionaries off to convert Germany, Sweden, and England for a massive Tithe boost, and only needed a couple missionaries to maintain the home front. I was very pleasantly surprised.

I don't really play Egypt, so my strategies are not specific to that race. When I get around to playing this challenge, I'll build temples, but that's for the happiness, not the faith. if I can get a religion going, then great. But I still need more than shrines & temples to make a decent one.

The reason why I don't like weak religions is because my favorite beliefs are the per-city ones. Like Ceremonial Burial and Tithe(not really per-city, but close).

Novalia · Apr 29, 2013

Spoiler :

budweiser · Apr 29, 2013

Meh. Open Tradition, left side Honor. See, Egypt has a racket. Its called sell horse, buy chariot.

Spoiler :

Hidden bonus of War Chariot:

Spoiler :

Vintage Port · Apr 30, 2013

Turn 97

Where do I go from here? What should I attempt for a victory. First Immortal attempt for me.

Spoiler :

sufficiency · Apr 30, 2013

Vintage Port said:
Turn 97

Where do I go from here? What should I attempt for a victory. First Immortal attempt for me.

Spoiler :

I'm doing OK so far but I am spending some time trying to get my religion up which may have held me back some. I'm building Hagia (1 to enhance my religion and 2 as it gives a free temple. I have +2 happiness from my religion from temples. Also why I'm building a shrine in Memphis so I can get a temple up next. Already have a granary there. Happiness is killing my growth right now.

Education will be late for me @ 120 ugh. Couldn't get more cities up with Mongolia being a PITA. And my unhappiness is stalling my growth. I could annex Karakorum in 3 turns once its done building the Library. I have the cash for it to buy a courthouse. It would likely help speed things up.

Overall, other than my starting Capital I'm not to thrilled about the land/resources available for settling more cities. Where are all the unique luxuries?

Got lucky early when 4 Barb camps all spawned around my capital. Killed my scout who was dodging one camp and got smacked by another. Then had a worker stolen while I was fighting off another barb. My 1st scout got trapped behind Siam and had to delete him to save maintenance. Fun times

My second city I didn't have a choice where to settle as both me and Genghis were sending settlers that way. I just had to plant it where it is. Not a terrible location but didn't have a choice as I thought I would lose it next turn. Genghis DoW'd me a couple turns later. He paid the price but I was about 5 turns away from being ready for a DoW.

What should I do now?

View attachment 349507

Spoiler :

Vintage Port · Apr 30, 2013

sufficiency said:
Spoiler :

It's impossible to judge correctly due to slightly different AI flavours/behaviour per game, but if you want to do more conquests (which you probably should, since you only got 3 cities so far), you should consider expanding northeast on the river and prepare to fight Siam. Your other neighbours (Ethiopia, China, Persia) probably have their hands full fighting themselves than you, so they shouldn't be able to bother you much.

Thanks for the tips.

Spoiler :

Lord Yanaek · Apr 30, 2013

guinsoo said:
@ Bob - I would never go Stonehenge over Hagia Sophia... higher chance losing the wonder + it's not as good... and it's not even clear it's faster... and it will really slow down your build.

Not really comparable in my opinion. HS is perfect to get a religion if you failed doing so early, but then you'll have to go with whatever beliefs are left by the AIs. Stonehenge (if you can build it of course, which is quite a gamble with any civ but Egypt) guarantees you first (or second if Celts or Ethiopia are in the game) religion, and being able to choose your beliefs first is an important part of making good use of a religion.

Also: Shrine + Burial Tomb ...

Never told Tombs are not great, in fact i did tell they are great, but they can't really be compared with Colosseums. You can even build both

Immortal Challenge 5 - Egypt

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