[BNW] Old-school Babylon NC-first opening

I did this last night. Standard size skirmish map on quick speed setting. Managed to get NC and 4 cities by turn 54. My land was already cramped by the time I dropped my 4th city. And Venice of all people, complained about me stealing up his land(Jerk!) Build order was scout, monument, granary, worker, library, NC. Hard built two settlers and bought the last one. Was a good game with no wars(which I think was my downfall) But I had Assyria as a runaway nation and was eventually beaten on turn 185. I was one tech shy of the final space part. But I found that my real problem was lack of production endgame. While perfectly passable for Immortal, it just wasn't enough for Deity. I completely ignored religion and tourism, and didn't have any issues regarding happiness. Quite a few things I could clean up and hone(forgot to build an observatory in my capital for about 8 turns) Will give it another go tonight.
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joshua43214 said:

Well...
maybe this is not the tread for you

Starting a game with the intention of an SV means you do not DoW your neighbor. Building an army is a massive waste of resources in a science victory. You just want the bare minimum to fend off your neighbor. For most maps this is 4-7 units depending on playstyle and neighborhood.

That said, I often do get tired of looking and my units collecting dust and DoW someone later in the game just to make the game more exciting. But any war at all delays winning.

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I like the Patronage > Consulates and Pledge to Protect militaristic city states to get to friends as soon as you can and just let them supply your army. Keep an eye on demographics to stay in the middle or so and as long as you aren't next to a war monger you should be okay

homegrown said:

I do ok on immortal winning most games, catching up sometime in the Renn Era usually. But diety (no wins yet), I'm still behind at Radio.

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Pulling ahead in Ren Era and keeping that lead usually boils down to:
1) DoF management, and timing your RA's with..
2) Espionage tech steals, choosing the right AI to steal from.

Watching deal history and esp. screen in tandem with jockeying your research queue is the way to min/max yourself to reach at least 10% literacy > average AI by atomic era.

z284pwr said:

I like the Patronage > Consulates and Pledge to Protect militaristic city states to get to friends as soon as you can and just let them supply your army. Keep an eye on demographics to stay in the middle or so and as long as you aren't next to a war monger you should be okay

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This. I've been really appreciating Patronage as of late. The science bonus is strong, and you never have to build units when going tall. Pretty handy.

I have yet to win at Diety, despite all the help in these forums. With the NC before settlers strategy, I also have trouble with the AI settling on all the good space near me. I might have that under control in my current game, so wish me luck!

Am I correct to understand that the main point of getting to Education ASAP is to sign RA? Because if it’s to build universities quickly, I am failing that badly, except for my capital!

What is the utility of rushing to Renaissance? I understand that it unlock rationalism, but doesn’t advancing eras slow down policy adoption? Getting to Acoustics as quickly as I can, I still will have filled three policies in patronage by that time, and it seems like waste not to complete it. Would I not be better off trigger Renaissance a little later?

Thanks!

The rush to the renaissance is to unlock Rationalism and go straight from completing Tradition to opening Rationalism. The point of Education is mostly Universities because Secularism is so powerful, but yes RA too.

beetle said:

What is the utility of rushing to Renaissance? I understand that it unlock rationalism, but doesn’t advancing eras slow down policy adoption?

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No. Advancing eras doesn't slow down policy adoption at all, unless you interpret "getting distracted by all the additional policy trees that are now available" as a slow down.

Advancing eras does make all faith-based purchases more expensive, though. Exception: buying Great People (including Great Prophets) is unaffected by eras.

if you get germany in your game bismark should declare friendship with you pretty early in the game and you can get 240 gold early

Very interesting strat, I will try it tomorrow. However, it seems that you need to get a good location, i.e. being far away from other civs. If you see Istanbul 10 tiles away from your capital, get ready to see Ankara bordering your capital on turn 32.

Or run up a Large-size map and remove two civs?

I find that there are a ton of Deity games where I start farther than I'd like from the AI. With good scouting you know by t30 whether you're in a situation where you can get away with not having a settler out by t40. The problem is, if you're surrounded, and you've already committed to this strategy, then you're going to end up playing OCC by accident.

Beelining Writing is a gamble that won't necessarily pay off. You'd have to start that beeline before you know whether you can afford to delay other things. If you discover that there's competition for the only good expo spots, you'd better get a settler out quick, and now you've invested in Writing early for no good reason. Or if you discover that you're going to get Shaka'd on t55 or so, you're going to wish you had teched archery instead.

My problem with early beelines is that you often find yourself not able to make the tile improvement you need to unlock a lux for sale, or not able to build the building you need, or the archer you need... So, a balanced approach is safer. But, if you're willing to re-roll until you get a favorable start, the NC-first opening is a fine choice.

However, in any map where you have sufficient room to expand, the AI isn't killing barbs for you, so you'd better have units dedicated to protecting your workers and improvements. This puts pressure on the build queue. If two scouts are out scouting, and your warrior is out stealing workers, who's manning the fort? That second warrior you didn't have time to build because you built a library instead, that's who...

Still, when it works, it works. No doubt about that! But if you're going to rely on a fragile strategy (and I say fragile because I believe this is very map-dependent) then why not go for broke and re-roll until you can do GL->NC instead? It's still possible on Deity, although rare, and it can result in a turn 35 NC. (T28 GL via chop, t35 NC via more chop)

Might as well take it to the logical extreme, right?

I have to say that I love this strat and my Emperor version of it resulted in my most rocking game ever. A few days ago after finding an early culture ruin so I could pop open tradition early, I then built the GL, bulbed Philo, and built the NC and ended up with a game that would let me Oxford Radio in the early 160's with 4 cities which was a huge speed record for me.

I had to see if I could do better since that starting site wasn't so great and the first game I rolled today (weekend so I can play all day) was and proved to be better.

My start is just about the same except that I will buy a worker ASAP. This means doing anything and everything to get early gold. Yes, you sell embassies for 1 GPT and your two scouts are concerned with meeting many CS. I've had plenty of DOF's when they have the embassy I sold them but I don't have one in their cap.

The the order is similar to the conventional start shown by Martin for higher levels.

Pottery -> writing -> lux techs and mining if needing to chop, but make sure to have calendar finished so you can bulb philo when the GL is done.

Build order is scout -> scout -> shrine (I want a pantheon) -> work on granary til writing finishes -> GL -> (finish granary if quick) -> NC

Policy order is Tradition, Legalism, Aristocracy (15% for wonders).

Pantheon may surprise you but it is God-King unless there's something situationally much better. This is much better than the +15% for early era wonders since it provides +1 of five things needed early on. The +1 PP stacks with Aristocracy so it actually provides +1.15 PP which is almost as good as the +1.2 you get for wonders with 8 pop from that Pantheon, anyhow.

OK let me review (timeline) my game tomorrow (will edit) and I'll close saying that I Oxford bulbed Radio on turn 159 and opened Freedom as usual for specialist enhancement which would prove to be a good choice as no coal showed up later! I won a CV on turn 250 even though I had no early tourism as I delayed guild builds for more early expansion.

Turn 159 stats as I advance in Modern. Babylon pop 20 with wonders GL,NC, HG (love it and it only costs what two gardens cost), HS, Borobudur, FP (had to open Patronage as too much culture b4 could open Rati, but this meant that I owned more CS as well as the WC), Oxford, SC, PT (usual GE from Pisa and plant free GS for acad.) Babylon had 5 academies and I'd save any knew GS from here on out. Wonders in Akkad (great production with Petra desert hills) Petra, Pisa, ND (never a happy issue now I and can sell more lux) and Ironworks (love workshops and a spec esp, when secluralism hits).
I managed to sneak in Oracle in Dur-Kurigazlu.

Empire stats at turn 159, Science was 379, pop total in my 4 cities 56, and SP, had tradition long done, Patronage opener, and rati to secl, and two down right side to get +17% from uni's. Yes I could have more pop without the wonder mongering but they set me up for the endgame.

Also my religion was strong thanks to an early spread from Borobudur and I'd never spend any faith on any units except for the 500+ GP that popped and is on it's way to gain me another CS ally and then to show the huge Ottoman Empire the wonders of my religion noting that soon no more religions can he had and they don't even have a pantheon.

Most Emp players I know would love to have a game like this. OK I promise..no more Emperor for me..onward to Immortal no matter what.

Is turn 36 (GL appears when I open turn 35 autosave and asks me to choose a free tech) good enough for Immortal? Yes, this takes a great start and an early culture ruin and some chopping.

What's the fastest win on Immortal from a turn 160ish Modern era jump? I'd launch in the past but parts cost double now! I simply couldn't see a turn 260 launch now in this past game whereas I was sure I could produce so much tourism that I could win pre 260.

Most pros love Order whereas I love Freedom..please enlighten me for Immortal high science play.

OK some game info. I felt it was much better to waste the initial turn and not settle on grassland but to move and settle on the hill on gold and at the Y shaped junction of rivers. There were 3 forested orange groves nearby as well as cows and some other resources in the 3rd ring. Babylon would become an magnificent city for sure. After researching writing I planted the GS on the cows and went for mining to sell my gold and to be able to chop for hammers and to make my plantations. Early techs come quickly thx to the academy. On turn 26 I was able to buy my worker and set him to work on a plantation.

My NC was finished on turn 49 and along the way I was able to sell citrus from two plantations and had just started the 3rd. Everything had gone great so far as I'd hit a very early culture ruin, a new citizen ruin, and an upgrade to bowman ruin. My bowman had been near Almaty when they needed help with barbs and wanted me to destroy a camp. As it was a long walk to home across bad terrain, I returned their worker and had an instant ally soon giving me spices ending any happiness issues so I could sell all citrus and also take LE rather than monarchy policy. I decided to hard build two settlers at this point and noting that I could buy a settler in 2 turns and send him to the Petra city site. Almaty gave me an archer and that along with my warrior took out another quest camp to safely allow my settler to get to Akkad which then started straight away on Petra.

On turn 62 my final settler (4 city Tradition) was finished and I started building the HG. In retrospect since I was still unable to plant the first hard built settler as my warrior and archer had to fight a barb spawn and my final settler had to stay close to home as well due to barbs, I may have done better just to build the HG starting on turn 49 and take out the barbs and then hard build the two settlers once HG was done (likely about turn 66). I may replay and see if that improves things after 100 turns or so (just trying to learn).

Finally on turn 75 I was able to plant the settler for Nippur and like Dur-Kurigazlu it was a great site with res and lux and some new lux. Akkad was a superb site with two salts, cows, and a forested citrus. I'd finished tradition on turn 71 thx to CS friends due to busting many camps and had just started a GA. Onward to turn 93 and things are great. Petra has been completed and the caravan is sending food back to Babylon. Babylon will finish building Haglia in 4 turns and Dur-Kurigazlu has started building Oracle (likely too late for a higher difficulty?). I now have 5 workers having kept 2 captured from closer camps. Education was completed and in 6 turns Acoustics will propel me to the Ren era. I opened Patronage a few turns earlier since I had to spend a policy somewhere and had all sorts of CS friends from camps and quests. A GS had just helped, jump started by the GS point from the GL and enahmced by the garden and now of course, by two specs in the University I bought when Edu hit with some saved and borrowed cash.

Onward to turn 125 and I have 40 total pop and two cities about to grow and the wonder mongering continues while my 195 bpt will finish Printing Press in two turns and I will own the WC. Borobudur has spread my religion north and eastward where there's little interference to it. I'll have Sistine in Babylon in 9 turns and Notre Dame in Akkad in 8 turns (hoping not to get beaten to it and noting there was no Napoleon in the game as he beelines this).
From here it was the easy tech beeline to electricity on turn 159 with Oxford timed to finish then also so I could jump to modern and my ideology and the trivial quick win to follow.

OK I started my Immortal game and the spot basically sucks as I should change the background music to Jungle Boogie and mix in some skiing and snowboarding tunes. Babylon was settled next to a mountain at least but the general terrain sucks but at least is easy to defend. Sully is nearby and that sometimes isn't good. I'm not sure where my 4th city will go and not even a 2nd city site compares to what I had in the above game. No way will I try for
GL here on this level with a poor start and no culture ruin etc. This game will basically follow Martin's build order, but I think I'll go for a quick astronomy as well for the observatory and since being I think there may be some CS and city sites at sea nearby on this map as the eastern corner where I am has ocean above me and plenty of space on the world map. This game will be much slower and difficult.

I'm OK in the Immortal game but lots slower due to nothing resembling the previous starting position. As of turn 140 I have 3 uni's and 3 observatories and can get over 200 bpt if I want to fully staff them, but need the two non cap cities to grow. Nippur was founded later and is in process of catching up. I should have printing press in 3 turns and then the usual beeline to electronics. In the Immortal game following the OP build order as well as possible, I ended up building the NC on turn 57. Am at turn 169 now and will Oxford Radio on turn 177 for my ideology. My new cities aren't nearly as good as with the great start from the easy Emperor game.

All in all I do like this strat and used in often in early versions of Civ 5 for Immortal.

OK launched turn 317. Worried about Sully/Caesar so had to make units and then had to make culture/tourism to fend off other Ideologies. I presume a pro level player launches earlier from here but these parts take so long to make now and cost much more as well to buy. Tech wasn't the issue and in spite of really concentrating on pp that was the issue.

Awaken thread! I tried this on my game on highlands std speed, immortal, and by the time I got my 3rd city up, my neighbor theo had 8 cities up. Someone else is the runaway right now with double my score. Only good thing is I have mountain ranges protecting my land and a good chokepoint. I doubt I did it right though

Since this is an old thread i might throw in some obv questions: Did you build a Monument?(since the last patch usually this is a must even with tradition)

On Immortal it is also quite easy to go wide city spam, i had several 8+ city games on immortal which wouldn't have been that easy with full tradition(if you get 1-2 cultural CS Tradition/liberty is also very viable for city spam)

8 cities traditon opener, liberty finisher(for notre dame) i have quite good results, although it's immortal after all so what can go wrong.

monuments were built. I think my main problem was all the barbs. I got beat mercilessly from them

BHN Tech 4312 said:

monuments were built. I think my main problem was all the barbs. I got beat mercilessly from them

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still part of the game. reloading and replaying imo not!!!

Yeah. I opened the honor tree and about 6 barb camps appeared. Its gonna be fun elimating them. Not. But at least I can get my defensive armys exp up. I'll need that for when theo rolls in. I had to bribe her to fight spain because she had a massive army at my doorstep

I like to think that I'm no chump when it comes to Deity play, but in the 5 games in which I tried this strategy: I lost all the good expo locations, every time; I was DoW'ed with no defence, every time; and it took longer to make NC than with 3 cities, every time.

I think with an exceptional start this could make a SV win a few turns faster but it's not going to compare to a 3 city NC with 95%+ of starts.

consentient said:

and it took longer to make NC than with 3 cities, every time.

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How is it possible for 3 city NC to be faster than 1 city NC?

Otherwise, I agree that this strategy is not as good as 3/4 city NC. I cannot remember for sure how much I tried to follow this script, but I think I gave up on it quicker than you!

The major problem with doin nothing as increasin your cap science for 60 turns is loosing everything else.

Civ isnt that onedimensional.

With expanding fast you dont only get good city spots - but u get so many other things:
production
city growth
tile expand
lux tiles to work and sell
faith and culture progression
outpost cities even cause less barbs to spawn and be anyoing
option to produce units to do CS quests.
...

best way with every civ to play this game is to expand to 4-5 cities asap and get units to steal workers to work those cities and to aly CS.

Everything else is supbar and trying to do it some easy way.
But then the easy way is often enough to win as civ is so easy.

I did once a maya sub 200turn win with a fast NC, but this was only possible/good cause cap land was really great and therefore a very fast GL--> NC was possible.
Also you obviously NEED a granny to get anything out of a occ - at least this one city should grow ..