SGOTM 18 - Kakumeika

mabraham said:

I have the save. Working on PPP

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Welcome back Mabraham


Once Mansa has Philosophy and Education in 4 turns, does anyone think he won't try to Liberalism Nationalism?

I think we are pinning all our Construction hopes on Gandhi, and he has numerous techs he can choose from to tech since he finished Monarchy.

Maybe we should research Construction since catapults and phants are very useful for conquering Joao/Goldmembers/SwingerMids/Dr. Evil and his map for a Peace Treaty, and it costs 1/4th of Gunpowder.

Maps have been acquired from Gandhi and Mansa.
Now we can see almost the world, such as it is

Mining Inc. is starting to look tasty


T95 Real Game Photo Dump!

Foreign Lands


Techs and Extras


Southern Empire

Northern Empire


Could use some more REAL GAME signs up north in game.

WastinTime said:

I have not verified that Oxford will complete T103 after re-working the micro for the Market/University error

Capitalist 7P 4 Fpt

Market; (78 hammers instead of the planned 85 hammers)

(Univ: figure out how to get ~139 hammers (approx 28 x 5), NOT 140!)

95: University; 5f1h1c, 3h8c, 4h3c, 3f4c, 2 x 3f3c, 2f3c, engineer, 2h (+22 hammers; Work engineer 1 turn, not mine!)
96-98: University; 5f1h1c, 3h8c, 4h3c, 3f4c, 2 x 3f3c, 2f3c, 2fc2, 4h ... (+28 x 3 hammers - 132 Hammers)
(to optimize growth and anger, these whips can be done any time AFTER Bureau and then removed from q)
(size: 10 with HG)
99: Temple 2P whip; 5f1h1c, 3h8c, 4h3c, 3f4c, 2 x 3f3c, 2f3c 2f2c, (8P left)
100: Market 2P whip; 5f1h1c, 3h8c, 4h3c, 3f4c, 2 x 3f3c (6P left)
(grows to size 7)
T101 University whip 2 5f1h1c, 3h8c, 4h3c, 3f4c, 3f3c (5P left)
(grows to size 6)
T102 Oxford; 5f1h1c, 3h8c, 4h3c, 3f4c, 2 x 3f3c
T103 Oxford completes; 5f1h1c, 3h8c, 4h3c, 3f4c, 2 x 3f3c (Verified)

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The "micro" I used is in PPP v3.0, hastily changed due 1t delayed Bureaucracy. The above must be from an earlier version.

The plan was to adopt Bureaucracy on t92, but we were not able to do that until we traded for Civil Service t93. I made a worse case assumption that this would cause Oxford University completion to slip from t103 to t104.

Sorry, I was not aware of any alternative micro for Anarchy and Bureacracy on t93.

Sun Tzu Wu

Market; (78 hammers instead of the planned 85 hammers)

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This happened because we expected to build Market with 1t of Bureaucracy, but Bureaucracy came 1t later than expected. We knew days ago that Bureaucracy would be late, but we didn't plan for it. That is my fault. I should have asked for alternative micro, one alternative for each turn Bureaucracy was late.

Sure I understood that we planned Market to have 185H and has only 178H, but if I had built another turn of Market instead of University, the Market whip would have been 1P and though we needed it to be 2P.

My apologies for not insisting that the Oxford University micro be reworked for the delay in Bureaucracy we knew was coming as far back as t89 or t90. I believe we could have computed a fairly good estimate of the delay in getting Bureaucracy and produce alternative micro before I resumed play late last night. Again, as the player up, I take the blame for not making sure this got done.

EDIT: I see now that WastinTime worked out new micro for t93 Anarchy, the beginning of the post said something about the unexpected 1 Angry in Capitalist, but the cease fire fixed that and thought we didn't need that new micro (did not realize it was an alternative micro for t93 Anarchy - would have been better if post said must change micro for 1t delay of Bureacracy). Please be sure that micro offered gets put into the PPP. Of course it is still my fault the new micro didn't get into the PPP. On the other hand, part of the reason we have a PPP is so the entire team has chance to make sure we haven't missed something.

Sun Tzu Wu

Kaitzilla said:

Welcome back Mabraham


Once Mansa has Philosophy and Education in 4 turns, does anyone think he won't try to Liberalism Nationalism?

I think we are pinning all our Construction hopes on Gandhi, and he has numerous techs he can choose from to tech since he finished Monarchy.

Maybe we should research Construction since catapults and phants are very useful for conquering Joao/Goldmembers/SwingerMids/Dr. Evil and his map for a Peace Treaty, and it costs 1/4th of Gunpowder.

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Kaitzilla said:

Welcome back Mabraham


Once Mansa has Philosophy and Education in 4 turns, does anyone think he won't try to Liberalism Nationalism?

Click to expand...

Naturally that would be perfect for us. It's not a problem because we have to run 0% research until T103, Then Gunpowder hopefully ~T110. By then we will know what Mansa got from Liberalism. By then he should even have Machinery too. Lot's of options. Let's just wait and see.

Also, during this time that we are building research and getting Gunpowder, it's extremely likely that Mansa will come up with Construction very very soon. Then we should be able get it from Joao. If our luck holds out, we will get Construction before we DoW. If not, we get it during the Cease Fire.

Our HA's alone can pick up 3-5 Joao cities. Then the cats roll in for the two tough ones.

Regardless of whether you think we should take Construction before Gunpowder, I sincerely hope you're not thinking of burning all our cash for Construction and then switch to 20% research after Oxford!?!

Sun Tzu Wu said:

The "micro" I used is in PPP v3.0, hastily changed due 1t delayed Bureaucracy. The above must be from an earlier version.

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I gave specific new micro for the 1t delay in Bureacracy. Shown here:
(sorry, I realize now that you figured this out)

WastinTime said:

Anarchy 93
Captialist can shuffle things around so it doesn't spend that turn off the mine (we risk losing a turn on Oxford if we don't)


92: University; 5f1h1c, 3h8c, 4h3c, 3f4c, 2 x 3f3c, 2f3c, 4h (+21 hammers)
93: Anarchy: Market
94: Market; 5f1h1c, 3h8c, 4h3c, 3f4c, 2 x 3f3c, 4h (85 hammers; use mine)
94: University; 5f1h1c, 3h8c, 4h3c, 3f4c, 2 x 3f3c, 2f3c (20 hammers; Work cottage, not mine!)
95-98: University; 5f1h1c, 3h8c, 4h3c, 3f4c, 2 x 3f3c, 2f3c 4h (+28 x 4 hammers - 133 Hammers)

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The Micro you quoted above (and I've copied again down below) is now the newest version that must be used in the next TS to correct the errors.

I have not verified that Oxford will complete T103 after re-working the micro for the Market/University error

Capitalist 7P 4 Fpt

Market; (78 hammers instead of the planned 85 hammers)

(Univ: figure out how to get ~139 hammers (approx 28 x 5), NOT 140!)

95: University; 5f1h1c, 3h8c, 4h3c, 3f4c, 2 x 3f3c, 2f3c, engineer, 2h (+24 hammers; Work engineer 1 turn, not mine!)
96-98: University; 5f1h1c, 3h8c, 4h3c, 3f4c, 2 x 3f3c, 2f3c, 2fc2, 4h ... (+28 x 3 hammers - 132 Hammers)
(to optimize growth and anger, these whips can be done any time AFTER Bureau and then removed from q)
(size: 10 with HG)
99: Temple 2P whip; 5f1h1c, 3h8c, 4h3c, 3f4c, 2 x 3f3c, 2f3c 2f2c, (8P left)
100: Market 2P whip; 5f1h1c, 3h8c, 4h3c, 3f4c, 2 x 3f3c (6P left)
(grows to size 7)
T101 University whip 2 5f1h1c, 3h8c, 4h3c, 3f4c, 3f3c (5P left)
(grows to size 6)
T102 Oxford; 5f1h1c, 3h8c, 4h3c, 3f4c, 2 x 3f3c
T103 Oxford completes; 5f1h1c, 3h8c, 4h3c, 3f4c, 2 x 3f3c (Verified)

Oxford: Don't sweat it too much. Should not end up being delayed. I'm sure mabraham can make sure that it still comes out T103. We may not be able to grow the city as quickly as planned due to having to work an extra mine or something around T101-102.) STW did an excellent job getting every single hammer in place up until T92. And you didin't make a huge blunder (like if you'd put an extra turn in the market and passed the 2-pop whip mark.) But the current path we are on adds ~3 turn delay (i.e. Don't let the university get 140 hammers)

WastinTime said:

I have not verified that Oxford will complete T103 after re-working the micro for the Market/University error

Capitalist 7P 4 Fpt

Market; (78 hammers instead of the planned 85 hammers)

(Univ: figure out how to get ~139 hammers (approx 28 x 5), NOT 140!)

95: University; 5f1h1c, 3h8c, 4h3c, 3f4c, 2 x 3f3c, 2f3c, engineer, 2h (+22 hammers; Work engineer 1 turn, not mine!)
96-98: University; 5f1h1c, 3h8c, 4h3c, 3f4c, 2 x 3f3c, 2f3c, 2fc2, 4h ... (+28 x 3 hammers - 132 Hammers)
(to optimize growth and anger, these whips can be done any time AFTER Bureau and then removed from q)
(size: 10 with HG)
99: Temple 2P whip; 5f1h1c, 3h8c, 4h3c, 3f4c, 2 x 3f3c, 2f3c 2f2c, (8P left)
100: Market 2P whip; 5f1h1c, 3h8c, 4h3c, 3f4c, 2 x 3f3c (6P left)
(grows to size 7)
T101 University whip 2 5f1h1c, 3h8c, 4h3c, 3f4c, 3f3c (5P left)
(grows to size 6)
T102 Oxford; 5f1h1c, 3h8c, 4h3c, 3f4c, 2 x 3f3c
T103 Oxford completes; 5f1h1c, 3h8c, 4h3c, 3f4c, 2 x 3f3c (Verified)

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I don't see how the transition from engineer to mine T95->T96 leads to a change of 6 hammers. It's +2 base and +2 from multipliers, no?

Never mind; the hammer shortage on the market means we already have a 9th pop, so I'll probably have to rework the micro. Spreadsheet says "no problem"

Right, 24 hammers (corrected)
The point being: it must be less than 28.

If you want to get it perfect, you can try to run a cottage instead of an engineer. That was one of my earlier plans (so the city grows sooner) But you will have to test that we don't let Oxford slip. The reason I did engineer was just to try and make up for the lost hammers in the Market.

WastinTime said:

I think forge whip is a mistake. Do what bcool said and chop it.
Seraiel said it is "for sure more efficient to whip it". I think it's the opposite. "for sure less efficient"

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It doesn't really matter which way around it's done, what's important is that the Forges gets into place before the Library. We were short before chopping the Library (with no bonus) and then whipping the Forge (with no bonus again) .

So, if we send a missionary or 2 Gandhi's way, can we prevent him from switch back into Hinduism?
If it is possible that would be a high priority.

I think we are going to run into some happiness issues so I'm happy to settle Ivory/Dye.

Unanswered questions are
Where are we building MoM?
And where are we building Parthenon?

Are we teching Construction and building war elephants and catapults or are we waiting for an AI to trade it to us?

Even if Mansa teched liberalism after philosophy and got Nationalism, it would be quite some time before we could trade for both philosophy and Nationalism.
The 20+ turn delay waiting for drafted muskets is the problem. I agree that drafting is great, but I think we can take out Joao long before we would be prepared to draft Muskets.
And Muskets alone would still need catapult support (at least a few). And by the time we have Muskets, Joao might have longbows, war elephants and macemen.

I would much rather take the fight to Joao now with catapult and war elephant support.

Joao has quite a few units, a stack of horsearchers would be decimated by a few spears on defense or on offense. Would we be able to keep anything we took from Joao?
It doesn't look like we will have a war ally for our fight with Joao....

1. We cannot prevent Gandhi from switching, unless we could assure that more population had access to Buddhism than to Hindu. AI will always take the religion it founded itself in a tie, so we unortunately really don't have a chance because the best we could achieve would be spreading Buddhism always to his newest city but it'd be a tie again once Gandhi spread his religion there too.

2. Wonders in Ning or Karakorum would be very nice to help pressuring the 2nd Corn. I'm not sure though if the cities are strong enough for that, Karakorum has a few Forrests though and we have a lot of (stolen ^^) Workers.

3. Spears aren't too strong against Horse Archers, believe it or not, but a C1 Spear and a C1 Shock Horse Archer are at even STR with the HA having the higher odds when attacking due to the 20% withdrawl. Unfortunately we don't have C1 Shock HAs because we needed C2 against Genghis, but those still have 50% in the attack.

Without Mansa joining our war and luring out Joaos units, I unfortunately think that going for Elepult would have its benefits. I'm sure that it's possible to take the Ivory-city form Joao to prevent him from building Elephants too, but I doubt that our HAs are able to capture more than 2 cities. We have 8 HAs, now let us lose 2 at the first city then those are 6, then we lose another 2 and we got 4, 4 HAs are unlikely to capture a 3rd city and we'd also have to leave garrisons in the conquered ones bringing us down to something like 2.

I agreed on us wanting the Ivory and the Dyes and believe that we'll be very happy about them, and that they're necessary for a successful war against Joao. I share the sorrows that getting Philosphy + Nationalism could get difficult because currently, we could maybe sustain 4T of 100% research, then we'd be out of money.

Never would I agree to researching Construction though, we'll get that tech for "free" and I cannot agree to us wasting any money that we currently have for something else then things that bring us Mansa's techs.

Seraiel said:

It doesn't really matter which way around it's done

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I didn't run the numbers, but I think it actually does make a difference. Overflow from chops will get 25% bonus from forge. Whips might come out differently. I'll try to remember to test this.

I'm not suggesting we can take 3-5 Joao cities with our current HA leftovers. We add a healthy amount and grab Oporto (West/Ivory), and 2-3 (maybe 4) of the east cities. I think I see a new city in the SE. (or maybe it's just a border pop.) We get a Cease Fire and cats should be coming along soon. Meanwhile, if we have army time to kill, we grab a couple Dr. Evil or even Swinger's Pad.

PPP is underway; T103 Oxford will be fine. Bedtime now.

Warning: I did not stop worker actions before uploading. Sorry, I forgot to do that.

Sun Tzu Wu

WastinTime said:

I didn't run the numbers, but I think it actually does make a difference. Overflow from chops will get 25% bonus from forge. Whips might come out differently. I'll try to remember to test this.

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OF from whips also get multiplied Wastin'. Not sure about the whips, but I think hammers are hammers and there's no difference, I think I even remember having read about that case once because I thought the same as you. With this I don't want to discourage you from testing it, knowing for sure (maybe once again) would be something good, so do it whenever you find the time. Maybe you can take the test-game once STW has updated it, of course any other game would qualify for this aswell. If this is too much work and you're busy with this game, tell me, then I'll test, I got savegames of all rounds I ever played, finding one that has a city that's suitable shouldn't be too hard.