From Gracious to Attack

[Sun-Pin]

I recently installed PTW with the newest patch and began enjoying the refreshing AI. It does appear to be a bit more aggressive (lots of World Wars). However, an oddity appeared.

Playing the Carthaginians, I brought the Celts from polite to gracious and had a military alliance with them against the French. So I permitted them to move their marines through my territory (no ROP though). They were definitely Gracious, but at the end of my turn, they declared war and were . . . Cautious.

OK, I can appreciate a good double cross and attempt to take out the premier power in the game. But declare war and be cautious?

I destroyed their units in my territory and checked the foreign minister ( a close relative of Baghdad Bob): Annoyed.

Oh well . . . the game is still a nice improvement over Civ III. I especially like the Celts and Carthaginians.

[Civrules]

Did you break a deal? Did they promise to attack you earlier (The AI keeps its word!)?

[Catt]

Wow! I learned a while ago that an MPP, a RoP, and a Gracious AI isn't enough to ensure that they wouldn't declare war . . . but I can't think of any instance where a civ declared war and remained "Cautious" with me. They always seem to go directly to Furious, and might bump back up to Annoyed after a while if no combat takes place.

[Civrules]

Once in a game the Americans landed a Spearman and a settler (they were on a small island) on my land. So I attacked, killed them both and Lincoln was only annoyed, not furious. After a while we became good friends and he eventually became gracious with me. I have had wars where the AI was cautious with me too but we did not attack each other and when I did he became annoyed and then furious.

[JonathanValjean]

That is perplexing. I have had a few civs declare war on me, even when they were gracious and when we had an alliance, but NEVER has a civ been only "cautious" while warring with me.... I'm really scratching my head on this one. Have you installed the latest patch?

BTW, the worst doublecross that I've had was in last month's GOTM (Game of the Month). I signed an alliance with a gracious France after the Aztecs sneak attacked me. On the very first turn, the French captured and razed my capital, my most cultured and productive city! I summarily destroyed France as soon as I could get the Aztecs off my back!

[jack merchant]

Bamspeedy had an excellent article about AI attitude a while ago (to be found in the 'strategy articles' forum I think) on how attitude works. On the basis of that article, I am thinking that your relations with the Celts were so good that even if X attitude points were subtracted, the remaining number of attitude points you had with them was still large enough to merit a 'cautious' attitude.
That will change when you start capturing their cities though

I never had a civ with which I was allied sneakattack me though - that is just insane.

[Raidne]

Originally posted by JonathanValjean
That is perplexing. I have had a few civs declare war on me, even when they were gracious and when we had an alliance, but NEVER has a civ been only "cautious" while warring with me.... I'm really scratching my head on this one. Have you installed the latest patch?

JonathanValjean:

I had a game lately playing as the american. When the zulu sneak attacked me they signed on the frenchmen apparently by giving them a few free techs (they were backward people alright). Before the french declared war, they were gracious towards me, but then they become cautious during the war. However, since the french could not sail across the ocean I did not have to fight two fronts at the same time. The american army subsequently razed all zulu towns and then made peace with france. Joan d'arc became gracious again...

Just wandering away from the subject... I was really impressed by the bravery of the zulu army when they hurled tones of impis against my musketmen and cavalries. Why does the AI never assess the relative military strength before they declare war?

[Anti-EUA]

Russia once sneak attacked me this current game. I didn't want war, so i only defended my cities. 5 or 6 turns later, i check the possibility of talking to her, and she's annoyed. peace is made, next turn, polite!!
10 turns later a took moscow!!

[Sirp]

Once I declared war on Ghandi, and he became annoyed, I think. Something less than furious anyway. This was after him being gracious before the war declaration. He was my good friend before that, but....we had wiped out all the other civs, and he had oil and I didn't, so the only choice for me was war.

I think that the outbreak of war just takes their attitude toward you down a heap of notches. If they started out gracious, it might not make it plummet all the way to furious.

But if you think about it....realistically the more friendly someone was with you before war, the more they'll hate you after it. If someone who you thought was your really good friend suddenly stabs you in the back and declares war, you'll hate him far worse than you'd hate someone who you were never friendly with.

-Sirp.

[Chieftess]

MPPs, ROPs and trade deals are the best thing to have if you see a sneak attack coming. That civ will get a rep hit. But, I've had civs be gracious, go to war, be furious, then be gracious 2 turns after it ends. Once was France declared war on me (sent about 25 swords to their demise), then 3 turns after the war ended, they were gracious and wanted an allience against the Chinese.

[Greyhawk1]

Never trust a civ. It seems entirely random to me if a civ declares war on any given turn.

The only time I saw any kind of structure to this was when Carthage attacked the Americans for a source of Rubber. However they continued the war for a ridiculous amount of time where nobody actually attacked each other.

I've had MPP's with a civ only to have them suprise attack me really for no reason at all. I've had civs attack me even though they have ancient units and I'm using Riflemen.

At least the AI actually suffers as a result. I saw Spain get destroyed by every other civ in the game after they declared war and razed a lot of my cities.

[Darkness]

This entire thread has only strengthened my opinion that you should never trust any AI, allied or not. And the only way to be sure they don't betray you is to annihilate them eartly...

[Sirp]

Originally posted by Darkness
This entire thread has only strengthened my opinion that you should never trust any AI, allied or not. And the only way to be sure they don't betray you is to annihilate them eartly...

So IOW the only sure way to be sure you don't get betrayed is by winning by conquest by 2000BC....thanks for the tip

-Sirp.

[Darkness]

Originally posted by Sirp


So IOW the only sure way to be sure you don't get betrayed is by winning by conquest by 2000BC....thanks for the tip

-Sirp.

*sighs*

That's not what I meant at all! I merely wanted to say that the AI does strange things and you can never really trust them not to betray you....

[Moulton]

Persia declared war on me in 1640 -- probably wanted a luxury, and thougt I would be too busy with the Arabs, on my other side. So Germany demanded a luxury, and went to war. Russia joined her ally when I sank a German ship...Celts and Vikings were dragged in. France was fending off the Persians, and stayed neutral...
I was not interested in warring with them in this game, and just prepared defenses. Took nearby Persian and Arab cities, and made peace. Germany and Russia would not talk.
After I harried their coastlines a few turns, Celt and Vikings sued for peace. Then Germany.
russia has lost every ship she sent out, and I am slowly turning her coastline back to desert/plains -- and she still won't talk

[Sun-Pin]

The Celts finally became furious after they lost about 1/2 of their marine contingent, 25% of their infantry and all of their tanks. I'm still working out the kinks of PTW and had a couple of questions (if it's ok to ask in this message thread).

1. The AI civs keep fighting wars, declaring economic embargoes, etc. The late stage game gets quite tedious because they are constantly moving troops, attacking and forcing a war, even against hopeless odds. Any way to change this.

2. What's with their moving a large stack of troops in your territory? I understand the overall concept, but why move 21 marines in a stack over open terrain (vs. about 100 artillery units) when the coastal cities would be a better target for amphibious operations?

3. Last turn the Celts moved a stack of tanks next to my city, then turned and moved one more square (to a different side adjacent to the city). When I polite told them to leave, they declared war (again). Wouldn't it make more sense to have them attack the city the turn they move towards it instead of allowing me to upgrade my modern armor to elite status?

4. Does reputation really matter in this game? It would appear that the AI routinely declares war, ignores gracious relationships and violates ROPs at will. Just like a human player I guess.

[cromagnon]

1. Eliminate them early

2. This is why we humans are in charge and not dumb computers (so far).

3. It doesn't sound like they were at war with you at the time. They only declared war (most likely) because you demanded (quite impolitely, might I add) that they leave.

4. Reputation matters mainly for YOU getting deals from the AI. Your reputation suffers tremendously when you break a deal, but the AI's reputation with other civs doesn't as much. If your reputation goes down, the AI will not make gpt deals with you.

(sorry for the cynical answers to 1 & 2)