PolyCast Episode 210: "Parsing Every Pixel"

DanQ · Sep 20, 2014

Go for zoom. The two-hundred-and-tenth episode of PolyCast, "Parsing Every Pixel", features regular co-hosts Daniel "DanQ" Quick, Philip "TheMeInTeam" Bellew and "MadDjinn" with first-time guest co-hosts "DarkestOnion" and "Eag". Carrying a runtime of 59m59s, the summary of topics is as follows:

- 00m57s | News
Taking in more and more Civilization: Beyond Earth information from the third livestream from developer Firaxis Games, a "First 100 Turns" playthrough video set (18m43s) and the annual megapanel from said developer (25m53s); then, on the delay of the Linux and Mac ports of the game from developer Aspyr Media (29m40s).
- 32m45s | Senate
Whether or not a rethink on Follower belief preferences for religions in Civilization V is warranted.
- 42m54s | Forum Talk
How to ground oneself in CivV which is "so vast" and which "good" players are making the switch from it to Beyond Earth.

- Intro/Outro | Miscellaneous
Order interruptus, legal caution and an unlikely tattoo.

Recording live before a listening audience every other Saturday, PolyCast is a bi-weekly audio production in an ongoing effort to give the Civ community an interactive voice on game strategy; listeners are encouraged to follow the show on Twitter, and check out the YouTube channel for caption capability. Sibling show RevCast focuses on Civilization: Revolution, ModCast on Civ modding, SCivCast on Civ social gaming and TurnCast on Civ multiplay.

rastak · Sep 20, 2014

Great episode!

DanQ · Sep 21, 2014

rastak said:
Great episode!

Thank you kindly. :king:

Westwall · Sep 21, 2014

Good on you guys for calling out trolls who cry "mod" or "reskin" based solely on the fact that BE uses a modified version of the Civ 5 engine.

Getting really tired of people who ignore all the major differences the game has to offer just so they can smugly say they stuck it to developers and rationalize in their minds why they have the "right" to pirate.

gunnergoz · Sep 21, 2014

Scratch a bit deeper and you'll probably find someone who's impatiently waiting for "Civilization IV Part Deux"

Magma_Dragoon · Sep 21, 2014

The reason it feels like a reskin is because civ 5 was so radically different from every civ game prior. Science and gold are now separate yields, civics are now permanent choices, one unit per tile, unique aspects of each civ are now much more unique, religion is very flexible, global happiness, hexagons.

If BE is as different from 5 as 3 is from 2, is that not good enough? I mean each game should be better than the last and we shouldn't settle for "good enough", but I really like the changes they made in from 4 to 5. I would be very unhappy to have to split my yields through a slider again, or if they got rid of social policies and used temporary civic options, or all my army was stacked into one tile marching from city to city with no tactical consideration.

DanQ · Sep 21, 2014

I appreciate your comment, Westwall, and I hope you enjoyed the show as well gunnergoz and Magma.

gunnergoz · Sep 22, 2014

DanQ said:
I appreciate your comment, Westwall, and I hope you enjoyed the show as well gunnergoz and Magma.

To tell the truth, I only recently discovered Polycast and was pleasantly surprised. Kudos to you all and thanks for the effort put into it.

shaglio · Sep 22, 2014

Based on Maddjinn's comments at the end of the Podcast, I guess my dream that some modder will port the "Favors" into Civ 5's Diplomacy have been stomped to death

DarkestOnion · Sep 22, 2014

Great podcast (but I am just a wee bit impartial prolly) DanQ! I shall continue to spread the word about Polycast because it is truly a one of a kind podcast; which should be a no-brainer listen for Civ Fanatics imho.

Acken · Sep 22, 2014

shaglio said:
Based on Maddjinn's comments at the end of the Podcast, I guess my dream that some modder will port the "Favors" into Civ 5's Diplomacy have been stomped to death

I don't think there's a problem to port the idea. If you can code it yourself.

DarkestOnion · Sep 22, 2014

MadDjinn said that coding it yourself would only give you a stronger counterargument against it being takenm down from the Steam Workshop. That is not synonymous with doing your own coding removing the legal concern Acken.

Acken · Sep 22, 2014

Thanks I know and that's not what I meant DarkestOnion.

But I think there's no problem coding that idea if you can, or that Firaxis would have a problem with only a feature appearing in their other game. See it as Civ4 diplo features in civ5. Obviously you'd have to ask to be sure you're not losing time.

DanQ · Sep 22, 2014

gunnergoz said:
To tell the truth, I only recently discovered Polycast and was pleasantly surprised. Kudos to you all and thanks for the effort put into it.

Welcome, new listener, and thank you for the kind words and support. :king:

DarkestOnion said:
Great podcast (but I am just a wee bit impartial prolly) DanQ!

I think it would be odd, in fact, if you didn't feel at least a bit impartial in such an assessment.

I shall continue to spread the word about Polycast because it is truly a one of a kind podcast; which should be a no-brainer listen for Civ Fanatics imho.

shaglio · Sep 23, 2014

DarkestOnion said:
MadDjinn said that coding it yourself would only give you a stronger counterargument against it being takenm down from the Steam Workshop. That is not synonymous with doing your own coding removing the legal concern Acken.

I'm not up to speed on my programming laws (if that's even a thing), but I don't see how it would be illegal to take code from one civ game and mod it into another civ game as long as you give them the credit rather than trying to pawn it off as your own work. But, I've never modded anything in my entire life other than changing the Max Barbarian Experience from 30 to 9999 and adding an upgrade from Scouts and Pathfinders to Musketmen.

Browd · Sep 23, 2014

Software code is subject to copyright laws, which typically give the copyright owner the more-or-less exclusive right (exceptions vary country by country) to reproduce, distribute, display or perform the copyrighted work, including the right to make derivative works (which is what reworked code in a mod for a different game would likely be viewed as).

Crediting the original source of infringing code is certainly an honorable thing to do, but doesn't mitigate the infringement. Whether or not you can do any of this will be determined in large measure by the terms of use you agree to when you buy the game.

If you never buy or have access to the game (say you read about a game feature or mechanic on a public forum) and truly independently create a mod that implements a similar feature or mechanic in a different game, and can show that you didn't use or rely on code from the game that inspired that feature, you should be OK.

MadDjinn · Sep 23, 2014

Browd said:
Software code is subject to copyright laws, which typically give the copyright owner the more-or-less exclusive right (exceptions vary country by country) to reproduce, distribute, display or perform the copyrighted work, including the right to make derivative works (which is what reworked code in a mod for a different game would likely be viewed as).

Crediting the original source of infringing code is certainly an honorable thing to do, but doesn't mitigate the infringement. Whether or not you can do any of this will be determined in large measure by the terms of use you agree to when you buy the game.

If you never buy or have access to the game (say you read about a game feature or mechanic on a public forum) and truly independently create a mod that implements a similar feature or mechanic in a different game, and can show that you didn't use or rely on code from the game that inspired that feature, you should be OK.

Yeah.

To clear up a bit what I said --

Direct copy paste -- illegal.

making a mod that simulates the features, not quite so bad, but basically leaves you at the mercy of whichever mod for the Steam Workshop of the game happens to wander by.

Firaxis does like mods, and so generally won't get mad about simulating features, but direct steals are unlikely to be allowed.

shaglio · Sep 23, 2014

MadDjinn said:
Yeah.

To clear up a bit what I said --

Direct copy paste -- illegal.

making a mod that simulates the features, not quite so bad, but basically leaves you at the mercy of whichever mod for the Steam Workshop of the game happens to wander by.

Firaxis does like mods, and so generally won't get mad about simulating features, but direct steals are unlikely to be allowed.

So hypothetically, after Civ BE comes out, would it be okay if someone converts the Favors in Civ BE's diplomacy to a Civ 5 mod? As you said, Firaxis likes mods, and the feature would be adapted from one Civilization franchise game to another one, rather than a completely different franchise's game.

OldEarthRelic · Sep 23, 2014

I think the issue is whether Firaxis thinks it would affect BE sales.

joncnunn · Sep 23, 2014

MadDjinn said:
Yeah.

To clear up a bit what I said --

Direct copy paste -- illegal.

making a mod that simulates the features, not quite so bad, but basically leaves you at the mercy of whichever mod for the Steam Workshop of the game happens to wander by.

Firaxis does like mods, and so generally won't get mad about simulating features, but direct steals are unlikely to be allowed.

Yup, copy paste violates copyright as does anything that started that way.
Ideas are not protected from copyright (if a software patent is made, then patent law would also protect the idea except that in many cases its much easier with the right lawyer to have software patents tossed in court than it is for physical machines.)

The other form of protection is trade secrets but anything made public is ineligible.

shaglio said:
So hypothetically, after Civ BE comes out, would it be okay if someone converts the Favors in Civ BE's diplomacy to a Civ 5 mod? As you said, Firaxis likes mods, and the feature would be adapted from one Civilization franchise game to another one, rather than a completely different franchise's game.

Things like Diplomacy and the AI are at the DLL source code layer, so you'll have to wait until then to even see if those are different in BE. However I'm thinking that if it's different at all that they'll be changes to method signatures.
(If the method signatures are kept identical but the details changed, then firaxis could easily make the Civ V patch themselves)

I'm not up to speed on my programming laws (if that's even a thing), but I don't see how it would be illegal to take code from one civ game and mod it into another civ game as long as you give them the credit rather than trying to pawn it off as your own work.

Fair use is well established for literature and song lyrics which is what allows short quotations as long as you give credit. However at the moment there is no such legal concept for computer programming code.

PolyCast Episode 210: "Parsing Every Pixel"

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