Seeding options - best sponsor

I wasn't going to do this, but it was asked for in one of the polls. I think I know what the answer to this is going to be as well, but here goes.

ARC - Covert Ops can be quite powerful, but you don't really get into them till the mid game

PAC - "nice" bonuses, nothing more. Many wonders are worse than ordinary buildings, so who wants to build them quicker?

PAU - get a bonus when healthy, and from very early on, you're not healthy, and it doesn't matter.

KP - ability to grow quicker is good, especially in a game that favours ICS

Brasilia - meh. Very little melee combat in early game as cities are so powerful, ranged combat is king until you get to affinity units.

Franco-Iberia - nice reward for going down the culture path.

Polystralia - hmm, I wonder who might win this poll? 5 trade routes in your capital?

SF - extra 20% on satellites is meh, as they're up there for a long time anyway, and you don't get any really decent ones till the mid game. Free tech for first satellite is good though if you can pop a sat with your explorer.


EDIT: dammit, can a mod add the poll for me please?

Don't need a poll, I think we all know the answer.

Haha, I know, but it would nice to see it in graphical format

MountSuribachi2 said:

Haha, I know, but it would nice to see it in graphical format

Click to expand...

Yep, but maybe u would wonder about the result?

KP FTW

Why does everyone focus on PACs wonder bonus? Anyone who played with India's super workers in Civ4 knows that the worker speed bonus is the real deal. Maybe that's just because I play on Marathon.

Rakshasa72 said:

Why does everyone focus on PACs wonder bonus? Anyone who played with India's super workers in Civ4 knows that the worker speed bonus is the real deal. Maybe that's just because I play on Marathon.

Click to expand...

It's true in Standard/Quick speeds too. And OP really underestimated ARC... the science/tech steal is the best science boost you can get from sponsor in this game.

PAC is definitely all about the faster workers; you get your basic improvements up faster, you connect your cities faster, and then you replace your basic improvements with better ones once you research them faster.

That said, while a lot of the outer ring wonders are disappointing, there are several wonders which are quite useful. Many of those wonders are from early techs, meaning that you can't necessarily get much of a leg up on the AI by bee-lining. And regardless of competition, getting them done faster means your cities get back to basic infrastructure or Agri/Cultural Development faster.

Hutama is probably the most powerful, but makes the tedium that is trade routes even worse.

Daoming is amazing. The wonder bonus is basically worthless (just like most of the wonders), but the worker bonus is good. A lot of the improvements take a while to make, and it also helps with building improvements in miasma early game. I would probably put her second.

Elodie seems really strong if you can accumulate virtues quickly. Artists colonists is a must (but who doesn't pick them anyway? Such a drawback lol) and a focus on getting culture related buildings is pretty obvious. Pairs incredibly well with those two culture wonders (-15% virtue cost and +25% culture in city). Strong civ, definitely fighting for third place.

ARC is strong, especially if you keep shuffling your spies around (honest hard to get high levels of high intrigue otherwise), but also sort of plain and one of those bonuses you don't even really notice while playing. Another civ competing for third place I think.

I didn't think Kavithan would be very good before I actually played the game. During my first game (as PAC) I quickly realized she would be fairly strong. I played Kavithan on a massive map and I must say she was a beast. Outposts were becoming cities almost instantly with one or two trade routes, and with Artist colonists and an Old Earth relic they would quickly sprawl their borders out. Once my health got under control I was pumping out colonists and my empire just became massive. Hard to decide who gets third (in my opinion) with these three ladies all having a strong showing.

Slavs are bland for sure, but considering how often you can get a solar collector early, it usually gives them a strong start. Gets his free tech much quicker than Space France, but after that they don't have much.

Africa seems strong on paper, but was disappointingly weak. Health is too hard to come by early game, when that growth bonus would really help getting ahead. By the time you securely have excess health you'll likely have so many internal routes and other growth/food bonuses that the +10% is just another drop in the bucket.

Brasilia is the definition of a boring, bland civ. His bonus doesn't even affect ranged units or airplanes. Why this seemed like a unique and interesting ability is beyond me. I haven't played him yet, and don't really want to.

If you're dedicated to tech stealing, ARC's bonus is something you definitely notice. I've gained a newfound respect for them.

PAC's fast workers are amazing. The bonus also applies to explorers when they have to dig something, which can be crucial if you're trying to get something on a miasma forest in the early game.

Kavithan Protectrate is actually great for the reasons mentioned above.

Franco-Iberia's two free techs a game are okay, but you have to really know your tech tree and culture rate to get maximum value out of them. Slavic tech is much more controllable, which is nice, but their orbital ability is actually counterproductive in terms of the Miasmic Repulsor, which is one of the more common satellites I use. Neither of them has the tech bonus of ARC, though.

Hutama's bonus isn't that great. Trade Routes are great. Having a couple more when you're already fielding upwards of thirty is okay. It's an early-ish boost if Miasma and city position actually allow you to send out that many trade routes (i.e. map-dependent), otherwise, it's a drop in a bucket.

Africa and Brasilia are meh. Africa's won't even be active for the bulk of games, and Brasilia's won't provide much difference until it's too late for yet another 10% to be important.

Actually voting for ARC over Polystralia because the specific strategy of beelining Networks and flipping all the AI capitals before they get a counter spy up is much easier with ARC, plus Tech Stealing is much quicker with the ARC. Here is how I'd rank them;
1.ARC
2. Polystralia 2 more trade routes early on on pretty good
3. PAC Worker speed on several pieces of land has a significant snow balling effect
4. KP Growth and tiles to work is nice
5. SF can pick a tech to slingshot
6. Franco-Iberia a couple of techs at various points in the game, is basically half or a third of what the ARC will get from tech stealing speed.
7. Brasilia melee bonus is nice for protection of explorers versus early alien attacks
8. Africa outside of the first 30 turns pretty bad at the current point of balance.

I havnt played ARC yet because I'm not keen on micromanaging spies, but for the rest I agree with Resiosa.

Please do ignore PACs wonder production bonus, its useless and if you want to wonder whore, Elodie is superior for slingshotting outer rim wonder techs giving you more time to focus on teching the rest.

PAC is all about the worker speed bonus. Add +10% from recyclers and +15% from prosperity and all your improvements are built in half speed, plus this also reduces explorer dig turns.

Actually, this is much closer in my opinion than the OP implies. While 2 trade routes are really powerful, the integrated output is not that large. Judging the leverage effect correctly is tricky.

Free techs from Franco-Iberia are worth something like 4000 science each. You can get 1 or even 2 of those in a game, which makes this fairly nice. Kozlov is a bit worse, but can be interesting for something like an academy slingshot off a free solar collector and similar shenanigans.

Tech stealing can be very awesome. Every spy can steal maybe 2 techs every game while it counts, ARC bonus can get that up to 3. Stealing techs is a crapshot, though, but the average science rate is maybe 2000 or so per stolen tech. This puts the bonus at something like 6000 beakers, but it can be as high as 12000

25% worker speed isn't bad, but most of the time I'd prefer one of the more science-centric bonuses. Being able to improve academies faster can be nice, though.

KP, Brasilia and especially Africa are all too weak to comment on.

If I had to rank them it'd be:

Franco-Iberia
Slavic Federation
Polystralia
ARC
Pan-Asian Cooperative
Kavithan Protectorate
African Union
Brasilia

+2 Trade routes is obviously really good. Getting free techs is also really powerful; Franco-Iberia's is overall better for standard games since you can launch Solar Collectors when you want to and can get multiple free techs, but Slavic Federation's ability is better for slingshotting. PAC is slightly underrated imo, the wonder boost is very helpful for Contact victories and faster worker speed is always nice. ARC's and Kavitha's abilities are just meh, but tech stealing is cool I guess. African Union's ability sucks as you're very often not healthy, and it works against itself. Brasilia's ability is just awful, Slavs are better at war then they are.

whoops; didn t mean to put Polystralia there.

Two extra ETRs represent a huge % increase in early beakers. Snowballs into much earlier EG Pod, Autoplant, and other 2nd ring goodies. Highly unlikely that any civ can catch up to that on a consistent basis.

Soffacet said:

Two extra ETRs represent a huge % increase in early beakers. Snowballs into much earlier EG Pod, Autoplant, and other 2nd ring goodies. Highly unlikely that any civ can catch up to that on a consistent basis.

Click to expand...

I'll see you a Polystralia and raise you an ARC. I've had outer ring techs by turn 125. And consistency is simply a matter of gaining more spies.

Bandobras Took said:

I'll see you a Polystralia and raise you an ARC. I've had outer ring techs by turn 125. And consistency is simply a matter of gaining more spies.

Click to expand...

The reason Franco-Iberia and Polystralia are better is because their abilities are not dependent on the Covert Ops system. While ARC might get 2-3 free techs from their ability and Franco-Iberia only 2, you have to consider that ARC's boosts are inherently more luck-based, and that other factions can also use Covert Ops. 2 free trade routes/ 2 free techs +Covert Ops > Slightly faster Covert Ops.

When people recommend ARC, are they using the "establish network -> relocate for a turn -> cancel relocation -> establish network -> repeat until level 5 intrigue -> coup" exploit?

ARC's Steal Tech costs 15 turns vs 20 for other factions. By the time another faction's spy has stolen three, ARC will have stolen four (this is discounting how much more quickly ARC can get a city to the appropriate level).

In other words, even assuming your games only last for 60 turns after you build your Spy Agency, each of ARC's spies is worth one free tech over the other factions. If your games last 120 turns after you build your Spy Agency, then each of ARC's spies is worth two free techs over the other factions.

The number of ARC's spies is easily equal to 2 x the number of cities you have (let me know if I need to explain that one). Even considering that it's random reward, this so far outstrips the science a measly two extra trade routes give it's not even a contest. Elodie might get two free techs off her ability if you focus on culture. But with Elodie and Kozlov, the point is slingshotting; their real power is in being able to choose their tech. For pure tech gain, nobody will beat a well-played ARC.

And calling ARC's research boost luck-based while ignoring the fact that Trade cannot travel through miasma and that trade cannot travel safely until after you have researched Ecology and received the boost from the Fence Quest is disingenuous, to say the least.

Bandobras Took said:

In other words, even assuming your games only last for 60 turns after you build your Spy Agency, each of ARC's spies is worth one free tech over the other factions. If your games last 120 turns after you build your Spy Agency, then each of ARC's spies is worth two free techs over the other factions.

Click to expand...

You have to factor in the chance of success. I think someone posted the numbers somewhere on the board, but if stealing tech succeeds 50% of the time, you have to multiply those numbers by 0.5 (so, 1 tech per spy instead of 2). There are other factors, too, like the fact that you'll be able to complete more missions before the AIs get defensive against spies (which is in ARC's favor) and the cost for having to get the spy agency up quickly (which might be a point against ARC, unless you'd do it even if you weren't playing ARC).

Bandobras Took said:

The number of ARC's spies is easily equal to 2 x the number of cities you have (let me know if I need to explain that one).

Click to expand...

Yeah, can you explain that?

And calling ARC's research boost luck-based while ignoring the fact that Trade cannot travel through miasma and that trade cannot travel safely until after you have researched Ecology and received the boost from the Fence Quest is disingenuous, to say the least.

Click to expand...

This is never a problem with proper city placement.

Elodie might get two free techs off her ability if you focus on culture. But with Elodie and Kozlov, the point is slingshotting; their real power is in being able to choose their tech. For pure tech gain, nobody will beat a well-played ARC.

Click to expand...

Elodie isn't about slingshotting; that's for Kozlov. With Elodie, you're guarenteed two free techs, and it's always beneficial to focus on getting culture anyway so it's not like you're playing badly, as opposed to just praying than an operation goes well. Now these two techs are in addition to the potential ones you can get from Covert Ops, which puts them ahead of ARC.

(this is discounting how much more quickly ARC can get a city to the appropriate level).

Click to expand...

Currently there's an exploit for that anyway.

For the rest just read the post above this one.