Unit Request: Cog / Kogge

[Mithadan]

Any ship-designer types out there? Of the old fashioned sort? I'm always interested in Dark Age stuff, and for boats we've got the Longship and the two Galleasses.

How about a Cog? (Kogge is Dutch, maybe German too, for it.) I believe this would have been the ship of the Hanseatic League. If you stick embattled turrets on the front and back (aft- and fore-castles, nay?) then it could be used as a warship, I suppose.

In my mind, the broad strokes of Dark Age shipping are something like this: after the Longship and Knorr came the clinker-built Cog/Kogge for the Northern Seas, and the triangular-sailed, carvel-built Lateener sailed the Mediteranean. The earlier Galleass graphic has got lateen sails, which fits fine for me. The Cog/Kogge seemed to have been outclassed by the Hulk, which seems to fit the later Galleass graphic fine for me too. From there, I guess the Caravel sort of took over for both the Northern and Middle Seas, sort of merging the line?

Longship and Knorr = we have a Longhship graphic
Cog/Kogge = nix
Lateener = early Galleass graphic
Hulk = late Galleass graphic
Caravel, Ship of the Line, etc. = several beautiful graphics out there already.

So, as long as we don't need a Knorr graphic, all we'd need is a Cog. Sounds cool to me. Any interest? Schematic drawing attached.

Cheers.

[god_money]

Great idea,... a middle ages marine vessal is also aesthetically
needed for the meso-american civs, I believe (?).

Any takers?

[embryodead]

damn i really need this one... would perfectly fit into the sailships hole i have in my mod. havent been using rhino for a while, but maybe i should. do u have any pictures on how the sail should look esp when moving?

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by embryodead
damn i really need this one... would perfectly fit into the sailships hole i have in my mod. havent been using rhino for a while, but maybe i should. do u have any pictures on how the sail should look esp when moving?

.. & damn I'd really love to see you do this one too

-- The attached photo is I believe from the same web site Mithadan used:

http://www.sint-lodewijkscollege.be/...p/shipcont.htm

Best,

Oz

[Pol_Cop]

Are you meaning Kogge like this??

[Arne]

Well a Cog is still on my to do list, but it is also far, far away. Actually I'm working on aincient things. But if nobody else turned this unit idea to Civ3 reality, one day I will start to do it .

[Mithadan]

Right on. Are those pics good enough for you, embryodead? And maybe Arne's got a historical duty to do a Cog, seeing how he's from Rostock! But if he's busy with ancient units, I'm certainly not one to complain!

[embryodead]

I can't promise anything, but it seems very simple task since the pictures are very good (these schematic drawings are perfect guides for 3d modelling).

[thestonesfan]

This would be a great, much needed unit! I've been using the Galleass for the role.

Though actually, I don't believe there are any surviving pictures of ships that were specifically named "Cogs", though they were referenced frequently. Scholars believe "Cog" was simply another word for "ship". "Dromon" might be a better name for such a vessel.

Of course, I could be mistaken.

[Arne]

"Dromon"? Well, i think we should name it "Cog" (Kogge). That's what we say for a ship like that: clinker-built, one single mast, one rectangular big sail - thats a Cog. A "Dromon" is IMHO a mediterran (byzantine(?) ship. Something like Galleys.

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by thestonesfan

Scholars believe "Cog" was simply another word for "ship". "Dromon" might be a better name for such a vessel.

Again, see:

http://www.sint-lodewijkscollege.be/...p/shipcont.htm

For "kiels" "cogs" "hulks" and "carracks".

For a more scholarly overview, see:

http://cma.soton.ac.uk/HistShip/shlecmen.htm

... Which is not to say that there aren't plenty of specific issues with classification, translation, etc. ...

-Oz

PS Oh and a "dromon" may be considered an early form of galleas in thath it was a hybrid somewhere between galley (generally one sail) and sailing ship.

Here's a Byzantine example:

[thestonesfan]

Thanks guys! Just when you think you know everything...

Cool links!

[Mithadan]

Ahh, so I wasn't far off using the "Early Galleass" graphic as a lateener-type vessel. "Dromon" might be a better name for it, actually, than the "Lateener" I had been thinking of...?

[Nder]

Why not just call it a galleass?

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by Nder
Why not just call it a galleass?

Because galleases were the chronological and technological contemporaries of galleons -- so your question is analagous to "Why don't we call a carrack a galleon?"

-Oz

[thestonesfan]

Isn't the caravel in Civ3 much more akin to a carrack? IIRC, it's square rigged. True caravels were lateen rigged, right?

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by thestonesfan
Isn't the caravel in Civ3 much more akin to a carrack? IIRC, it's square rigged. True caravels were lateen rigged, right?

Again, we come into the question of nomenclature, as there were both square and lateen rigged carracks -- see:

http://www.greatgridlock.net/Sqrigg/carrack.html

Also, the number of sails grew over time, so that four-masters were essentially galleon prototypes.

From the site mentioned above:

"Specific features of the carrack were its rounded stern, with the planks curving around from the sides to the rudderpost, the forecastle located directly above the stem, with the bowsprit rising from its top -- an arrangement that had been unaltered since the first "battlements" had been installed on the bow of a sailing warship -- and the aftcastle that formed an integral part of the hull."

"Caravels" also were both square and lateen rigged, and the distinction between the two grows blurry.

To further complicate matters, here's an opinion from:

http://www.vamos-wentworth.org/seado...ubject=carrack

The carrack was superseded during the 17th century by the more efficient design by Sir John Hawkins, which by eliminating the high forward castle produced a much more weatherly performance when sailing near the wind.

"Author's note: I feel the carrack was the type of ship refered to as a galleon in common literature. It has all the elements to match; extremely high castles, difficulty in sailing 'against the wind', very large cargo capacity, etc."

--BTW I disagree with this as an IIRC unique aspect of galleon design was considerable widening at the waterline to stabilize the ship while firing cannons.

Ain't it a hoot that actually trying to answer certain questions only makes matters worse?

Best,

Oz

[Mithadan]

(hey, that was my first bump! Is seven days long enough to wait before bumping? )

[LouLong]

Originally posted by Mithadan


(hey, that was my first bump! Is seven days long enough to wait before bumping? )

NO
But since I want this unit made too, I won't betray you

Actually I was joking for the first part, do as you want, I am not a mod....

[mrtn]

Originally posted by Mithadan


(hey, that was my first bump! Is seven days long enough to wait before bumping? )

As this unit request is quite new I think it's long enough.
BTW I'd like this unit too.
And I hope it gets a non-cannon attack, so it's easier to use in fantasy scenarios.