mb1 20K double whammy

[andvruss]

We do need more settled cities, but if Canton is going to produce more settlers and workers and it doesn't produce it's granary, the growth will be extremely slow, and joining more workers wouldn't be to great of an idea, since we have a limited number.

[TedJackson]

I sat and did some simple math to try and rationalise my gut feeling about Canton's granary

Canton with granary needs 10 food to grow. Without expansion Canton has, at best, +4fpt so to get 10 food (assuming we start at pop 3 with both BGs and 2 Grass mined) we work:

turn 1 - Cow + 2BG for a surplus of 4 food - 4 in box
turn 2 - as turn 1 - 8 in box
turn 3 - any tiles that produce 2 food for a surplus of 2 food - 10 in box for growth - now pop 4

Shield production for the above 3 turns (assuming both BG tiles are mined) would be:

turn 1 - Cow + 2BGs for 6spt before corruption, probably +4spt after corruption - 4 in box
turn 2 - as turn 1 - 8 in box
turn 3 - 2BG + mined Grass for 7spt before corruption, probably 5spt after corruption - 13 in box

Now at pop 4 we need 1 more pop:
turn 4 - Cow + 2BG + mined Grass for 4 food - 4 in box
turn 5 - as turn 4 - 8 in box
turn 6 - 2BG + 2 mined grass for +2 food - 10 in box for growth

Shield production would be approx:
turn 4 - Cow + 2BG + mined grass for 7spt before corruption, probably 5spt after corruption - 18 in box
turn 5 - as turn 4 - 23 in box
turn 6 - 2BG + 2 mined Grass for 7spt before corruption, probably 5spt after corruption - 30 shields in box - Settler

result Settler in 6 turns if both BGs & 2 Grass are mined. Until those improvements are made it will take longer.

I could hope that we only lose 1spt to corruption but it won't make much difference to the results.

So, on the face of it, Canton unexpanded isn't a particularly good Settler factory

Of course, once the Game is chopped, irrigated & in play it will be a different story

I hope I haven't made any mistakes but check the figures and see if you can come up with a better solution.


regards

Ted

[inudog]

How about Temple -> Settler -> Granary, with worker irrigating the game during all this.

This way we will get the game irrigation online quickly, which will get us to +5fpt, which is ideal for a settler factory.

Thoughts?

inudog

[Karasu]

inudog,
that's why I tink in this case a Temple works almost as a Granary -it opens up the Game (plus several BG tiles).

In fact, with irrigated Cow + Irrigated Game, the limiting factor for Settler building may well be shields rather than wheat.


Without border expansion, Canton really needs a Granary. But Granary + Temple is a lot of turns on the only city we can use right now for our expansion.


I tried to give a quick look at the Temple -> Settler, Settler -> Temple options:

- If we pop-rush Temple (in 3 turns), the Settler would be ready after 14 more (more or less, I may have made some mistakes with shields waste).

- If we build Settler first (1 turn), the Temple can be pop-rushed after 13 (same as above). This would get us another city 14 turns earlier than the other option, and give the lone worker time to mine and road a BG and clear the forest.

I need to check this a bit more in detail. I'll try to post some numbers later on.

[inudog]

Originally posted by Karasu


- If we build Settler first (1 turn), the Temple can be pop-rushed after 13 (same as above). This would get us another city 14 turns earlier than the other option, and give the lone worker time to mine and road a BG and clear the forest.

See, this is where my concern is. In order to complete the settler in one turn, we must sacrifice our worker. I think we need at least one worker preferably many more. Maybe we should wait out the four turns of wasted production (did I actually just type that!?!)

inudog

[TedJackson]

Originally posted by inudog
See, this is where my concern is. In order to complete the settler in one turn, we must sacrifice our worker. I think we need at least one worker preferably many more. Maybe we should wait out the four turns of wasted production (did I actually just type that!?!)

inudog

If you look at the screenshots of Canton then you'll see that there is another worker (N of Shanghai) wielding his pickaxe

I don't particularly like sacrificing the worker. It's just that I like the alternative even less.

@Karasu
Whipping could be problematic at this stage with no garrison or luxuries to offset the unhappiness. As to be even minimally efficient Canton would have to cycle 3 to 5 in pop. The 2 turns spent at pop 4 could be expensive


regards

Ted

[inudog]

Ahh, I missed that worker. I agree, I hate sacrificing the worker but we really need to get going on expansion. I think I've come to agree that the worker should be merged and the settler built immediately. Those luxuries are going to be important in allowing our culture producers to grow.

inudog

[mad-bax]

The Japanese get their UU at the same time as us and have a stronger defence. I vote we kill them before the Russians and before chivalry.

I'm not a great lover of temples early in the game. Just a waste of shields to me. We'll get literature soon and we could put a library in there for the game tile. That may be late and delay expansion, but there are more ways than one to expand......

I'm playing far too many warmonger games.

BTW Karasu it was an honour to be beaten so narrowly by you in the GOTM. I missed the Hanging gardens by 3 turns. I wish more than ever that I had got them now!

Space: Yep, you're up. Have fun.

[a space oddity]

Before I play I'd like to know want ye'all think of the yellow-dot sites for our luxery grabbing cities. The blue one should also be settled IMHO, $$$$$$$!

[Karasu]

Yes.
We would only have one worker left, IIRC, which is not ideal but surely better than no one...

I gave a quick look at how Canton would develop -the original intention was to do something more accurate, but I am getting tired.

Anyway, I reconsidered the usefulness of a temple after the Settler.
With only one worker, would have to wast 4-5 turns simply moving it around, in addition to those we would spend working the game. Canton would therefore have to rely on unimproved tiles for quite a while.

Which means that we probably had better mine the two BGs next to Canton, and delay the Temple.
A Granary, or a couple of military units, may be better used after the Settler is built.

In this case, whipping would save 5 turns on the 60-shield building, costing two turns at pop 3. (I generally do not use pop-rushing, the only exception being an early Granary or Temple).


EDIT: We cross-posted.

Space, I think the yellow sites are OK. Only, if you settle the other wine-tile, you keep the 5.5 RCP around Shanghai (up to you, anyway).


Mad-bax, you have my vote for killing the Japanese. And who said that this game should be a peaceful one???

We should dedicate a city to military units quite soon...

OT: It is an honour for me to read your words. They were indeed close games.
We should definitely try another 20k in one of the next GOTMs (not the next one, though, too many competitors!).

[inudog]

What about moving the wines one SE one tile so as to be on the river.

Also, is the south on the river? If not, maybe one of the hills either N or NW is and might be better.

That is what I think I would do, so if you are thinking differently, I would love to learn from and hear your thinking.

inudog

[a space oddity]

SE will create overlap with Shanghai, I think we don't want that, just in case we don't get all the GLs we need have have to actually build some of those Wonders .

Same thing goes for the fur city N. NW would only grab the furs after expansion, but we need them ASAP. If you look at the earlier maps done in the RCP/FP discussion you'll see it was located there too.

edit: Karasu, I saw your edit. I have not looked into RCP much yet. I take your word for it, if you say its a good RCP position. I personally build a bit wider but on the short term it's production will be better too if we take the other wines. Also the settler would reach it one turn earlier.. I think that's settles it (sic) .

[Wanderer]

Hi there guys. Sorry I've been so silent, but my internet time hasn't been my own, so I've not been able to get really up to speed yet.

Given what I've read so far, I'm trying to get my head around a few things ... please forgive my ignorance, but I very much a 20K city newbie ... let alone trying to double up.

Some questions :

There was talk of a Blue city site, and even abandooning our starting city. Has that been veto'd ?

Just to comment on something I read way early : planning/waiting on Great Leader's would be an error, methink's. In GOTM21 I got my first GL in something like 1300 AD!

Have we decided on Shanghai and Beiging as our 2 cities ?

I would like to note that I would generally be against the worker join & pop method for getting that settler, BUT getting an extra city now, and doubling our prod is going to be worth it, I think.

We are playing on regent, not so ? Then we may want to look at when unhappiness kicks in - I know it isn't too early, so I think we could get size 4 w/o an issue.

What is our tactic regards sci ? I'm not sure what our current sci rate is. Are we going to try and rely on trading skills to get ahead, and build a cash pile, or do we want to try and forge ahead on our own ?

CiaO 4 Now...

[inudog]

Ahh yes, sorry about that. Forgot about RCP/FP discussion, and I also thought the furs were right on the yellow dot. I've been at work too long today!

inudog

[TedJackson]

@ a space oddity
Re: dotmap - The southern dot is on the nail, the Northern should be 1SW if we're going to stay with a 5.5 RCP based on Shanghai. I know this will overlap Canton but if we're committed to RCP then we have to bite the bullet.

I doubt the blue site will come up during your turns so we can assess it after the warrior has had a look-see.

@Karasu & mad-bax
I agree that Japan should be our first target. It's just a question of what do we hit 'em with

@Wanderer
I think the Blue site is on hold for the moment.

As far as happiness goes Bejing & Shanghai are already at 1h,1c,1u with 10% lux.

Everyone seems happy with Bejing & Shanghai as our 2 culture cities.

As far as tech goes I popped Pottery from the 1st GH and then chose Alphabet at minimum.


regards

Ted

[a space oddity]

Originally posted by TedJackson

As far as tech goes I popped Pottery from the 1st GH and then chose Alphabet at minimum.

... and it'll be ready in 3 or 4 turns and we are able to buy The Wheel for straight gold already... but I'll play my turns tomorrow and post the events so we'll all know more by then.

[a space oddity]

pre-turn:
Like we discussed, I wake the worker... oh oh, it has already moved. No way can I join him to waste no shields on the settler...
Alphabet will come in in 2 turns, all is well, hit enter.

2150BC - turn 1
Move the worker in Canton, another turn lost, I will only be able to join him next turn . All in all we will have saved two turns by using the worker.
The warrior in the north reveals more brown borders.
GH pops three foes and reveals a barb camp.
No changes on the diplo front, Alphabet due next turn

IT: Our warrior gets slaughtered. Alphabet comes in, researching
Writing next.

2110BC - turn 2
I pull the "worker join - switch to settler" trick. I order a scientist
just to be sure we will not have a riot delaying us even more (2
content - 1 unhappy).

Trade Alphabet to Russia for Iron Working and 86 gold.
Trade Alphabet to Japan for The Wheel.



We definitely have to settle on or near the light blue spot, what a
site!

IT: Canton produces the settler , switch to worker.

2070BC - turn 3
Explore some more, no news

IT: Nada

2030BC - turn 4
Zzzz

IT: Nada

1990BC - turn 5
Settler arrives on the wines.
Scouts reveal nothing of interest.
Russia is suddenly making money, does she have contact? She has The Wheel now.

IT: Barb move in range of our scouting warrior

1950BC - turn 6
Nanking founded, starts warrior.
Our warrior kills the barb, no upgrade
Lux to 20% to prevent riot in Beijing.

IT: New barb move to warrior scout

1910BC - turn 7
Canton completes worker, start Temple (can be vetoed)
Ou warrior kils the barb and is a Vet now

IT: Barb attacks our vet and is killed. Our vet need to heal 1 turn.

1870BC - turn 8
Russia has Masonry now too , it could be those expantionist huts too.
We may need to up our own research when the luxes are online.

IT: Oh no, barb in our core. This is Vanilla civ so it'll beeline for
our cities, argghh. I pray that it's only money they'll pillage. I'll
move up the science slider to use our money now instead of letting it get stolen. So its (0.7.3) now.



1830BC - turn 9
The warrior that was already on its way back is still too far away...
I pray and hit enter..

IT: The barb moves on to the iron

1790BC - turn 10
The warrior will complete in Nanking next turn, other than that not much to do.

Writing is due in 16 turns. Excuses to the next player, he gets to watch what the barb will do...

I suggest a barracks in Nanking next and start churning out those vet forces. Japan settled the yummy spot so we'll have our target.

Here's the place where we will find out what will happen next.

edit: forgot to shrink the images

[mad-bax]

Inudog: You're up.

If the barb destroys the work on the pyramids I will be more than a little upset. The iron is nicely placed and pre-roaded! It's great when that happens. All in all we're in good shape.

It's difficult to expand though isn't it. Effectively we have one pop1 town for all our production needs. I wonder if this variant could be played at monarch level?

[a space oddity]

There's a chance the barb will pillage the iron tile first . I'm really sorry to have neglected our defence . The only thing I can say for myself is that exploring and contacts are all important too. It's my feeling that our scout warriors arfe on the verge of exposing least one other civ.

[mad-bax]

Space: You didn't do anything wrong. Civ is all about calculated risks. We all left the cities undefended, it's just the luck of the draw.

Personally I blame Ted and Karasu for using Roaming Barbs.

Inudog will have a great set of turns to play