Upgrade subs?

Can sub's be upgraded to a higher attack power due to their "stealth" underwater ability?

Ships that can't see the sub's should either: 1) suffer a 50% reduction to their defense, or 2) the sub's attack power should double, whichever would be easier to balance.

Right now subs, especially nuclear sub's, are VASTLY under-powered when an ironclad can sink one.

Even a WW2 or modern era battleship, without sonar or other means to detect a sub as modelled in the game, should be a siting duck to an enemy or friendly sub, and this is not the case.

I know sub's can be modded to be more powerful, but that would miss the point of their being stealthy and 'hidden' in the first place which SHOULD give a huge bonus in combat because they can attack when the enemy is unprepared. Against a ship that can see them sub's are easy prey but against those that can't, they rule and this can only be shown by modding the "stealth" ability some way.

Perhaps a sub should get a single 'free' shot at the enemy when attacking or being attacked. Combat would ensue as normal, but if the sub 'loses' the first (and only the first) attack shot, it does not lose a hit point. This could be set up for other units as well, including other stealth units or ranged units. Ideally, this would be set up with a flag in the editor, so that it could easily be set for any desired units.

what happened to bombard (torpedos)?

Originally posted by fitchn
Perhaps a sub should get a single 'free' shot at the enemy when attacking or being attacked. Combat would ensue as normal, but if the sub 'loses' the first (and only the first) attack shot, it does not lose a hit point. This could be set up for other units as well, including other stealth units or ranged units. Ideally, this would be set up with a flag in the editor, so that it could easily be set for any desired units.

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this sounds like the way subs attack in axis and allies. do you play that game?

Originally posted by tctatheel7
this sounds like the way subs attack in axis and allies. do you play that game?

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Nope, never played it. This idea just kind of struck me as being fairly logical and somewhat obvious.

Perhaps the ability should be called something to the extent of 'first strike.' I also think that this ability should be given to any ranged units fighting non-ranged units, to represent the ranged units ability to attack the non-ranged unit while it approaches (ie, bowman vs. legionare).

@ fitchn: Great idea for ranged vs. non-ranged, but IMO it's not good for subs. I think that an extra ability, "x2 vs. non-detect-invisible units" in addition to stealth should be given to the sub.

I agree with toh6wy, giving subs a x2 against non-invisible units would be like the defensive bonus to certain types of terrain, so I think it would be easier to implement. Also, destroyers..... What's the deal with them and the aegis cruisers?!? Destroyers were specifically ASW ships (ie. depth charges) and aegis cruisers specialize AA and AM operations. So the ability for the aegis ships to see submarines but having destroyers blind to them seems kind of strange.... Maybe give the cruisers an advantage against aircraft so as to help support carriers?

granite's right, firaxis has things mixed up with the destroyers and aegis cruisers, which suprises me, since it was correct in Civ 2 (wasn't it?).

In Civ2, Cruisers, Destroyers, and AEGIS Cruisers all could see subs. AEGIS Cruisers had double defense against air, as well.

They mentioned that there will be battle mutiplyers, but I wonder about some kind of "Unit AA Gun"

toh6wy had the idea I was looking for with his 2X multiplier against non-detect targets. This would be the exact thing needed to make the subs useful as something other than a roadblock or early warning system (which is not really what they are good for at all.)

If subs are meant more like a underwater scout then they need to be able to see something like 5 squares all around to model the SOUSSA (?) system employed by the US Navy where they can tell where a ship is going via underwater microphones.

I think the stealth attack ability is good enough.