airbases?

[spenser]

i am planning to do a major air strike

should i create airbases
or should i use carriers since they are near water

one city is close enough for a cruise missle attack
so that could make airbases more useful than carriers
since i wont need to carry missles

[Le Petit Prince]

Airbases...missles sucks for their price...

the AI loves Carrier...They always go after with 4-5 missles...

My favorite strategy is attack with a carrier with 2 AEGIS

[Daaraa]

Maybe I'm going about it all wrong but I've never built airbases. I've always thought of them as too vulnerable to land based attacks.

Kind of like the fortresses the AI builds. Engineers could do a whole lot more for your civ than build fortresses and airbases.

I'll use carriers or just use cites. I'll take a settler and build a city on the continent I want to take over and call it "England" or "Japan" just to keep track of it.

Maybe with other replies to this I might change my strategy. I'm kind of new to this and I'm open to all tips and strategy hints.

[starlifter]

Here is my general summary, you decide what is best. There are other secondary advantages/disadvantages, particlularly of Airfields, but these are the major points for combat I can think of at this time:

Airbases

Advantages:
- Cheap (4 food/2 shields)
- Defensible (units defend one at a time, like fortress... but no defensive bonus)
- Unsinkable
- No land unit movement points in/out (NOT a RR, but similar)
- Capacity = More than 8
- Build fast (one turn, with 2 engineers)
- Extends range of Air units by cutting distance
- Free upkeep

Disadvantages:
- Can get in way (accidental landings, etc.)
- Air units can be attacked by ground units
- Immobile (but can be easily removed)
- Cannot repair Air units

Carriers

Advantages:
- Mobile (but limited to contigious water)
- Air units can land "in water" (on carrier)
- Can use its speed to help recover an air unit short on range

Disadvantages:
- High priority AI target
- Expensive
- Long construction time (or more expense)
- Positioning time
- Low capacity (8)
- Poor defense against AI Air * AI Battleships
- Needs at least one AEGIS Cruiser (expensive/unhappy)
- Can cause unhappiness in home city (Democracy/Rep)
- Costs 1 shield per turn (in some situations)

[Sevorak]

I hadn't actually used carriers for more than 5-6 aircraft before GOTM 8, so I always thought Carriers always had a limit of 8. However, during my offensive, I built 16 stealth fighters and 2 carriers in Paris. I figured, one carrier would move out, with 8 sleeping fighters on it, then the other carrier would grab the other 8 and move in the other direction. Imagine my surprise when the first carrier took all 16 with it, and at the end of turn when all 16 seemed fine just being on the carrier.

Is this just a Warlord thing? Or is the carrier limit just not there? Or is this just a problem not fixed in my version of Civ2 MGE (1.11 according to patch.txt)?

-Sev

[ferenginar]

There are some very interesting points raised here, particularly by Starlifter in the analysis of the relative cost/ benefits. However, the most important factor which influences this kind of descision should be the circumstances at the time.

I do not build many airbases, I prefer to build a city and run the planes from there, thus having the benefit of the airbase, but gaining a city with air defence.

Carriers are more important, the more sea you have, they provide an excellent method of attacking seperated continents. In a recent game, I opened up a beachhead on a densely packed
Zulu Continent, with a settler unit and a few mobile infantry, then parked a carrier and Aegis Crussier, half way between the Beachhead city and a suitable city on my main continent. I then used my major cities to produce lots of stealth fighters, hop across to the beachhead via the carrier and wiped out the Zulu defences.The zulus dropped dozens of missiles on the carrier but to no effect. A transport with a load of tanks finished the job by swooping in and capturing all the cities in one turn.

[WUM]

how come???
somehow i don´t manage to defend myself against numerous missile-attacks...

Originally posted by ferenginar
The zulus dropped dozens of missiles on the carrier but to no effect.

[Sodak]

I agree with ferenginar. If the circumstances are right, either way can be beneficial. If the enemy has rocketry, you simply must escort any carrier or transport with AEGIS cruisers. If they don't, then you just need to patrol to keep their navy away.

Another airbase bonus is that it can change hands with no penalty. If you build a beachhead city (another effective attack strategy), it could get bribed. You can also fortify a good land unit on the airbase (don't build a fortress, that will wipe out the airbase) to aid in defense.

The one thing not mentioned in cost/benefit is getting your engineer to the place you want to build an airbase. If this is in range of the enemy, you risk losing some engineers or a transport in the process.

[starlifter]

...all 16 seemed fine just being on the carrier.

Is this just a Warlord thing? Or is the carrier limit just not there? Or is this just a problem not fixed in my version of Civ2 MGE (1.11 according to patch.txt)?

Carriers are supposed to have an 8-unit limit.... extra units will be killed at the beginning of the next turn. I use Civ II MGE, 5.4.0f (31 mar99), no add ons. You can "kite" units like bombers, though. Just don't keep more than 8 aboard . Your case must be a version or level thing. I have never build a carried below King level. Maybe someone else with such experience can comment .

Carriers are more important, the more sea you have,

Yes indeed. Plus, if one likes flanking maneuvers, such as MacArthur liked to do, Carriers can be great for putting a punch in a faraway, lightly defended area.

...The zulus dropped dozens of missiles on the carrier but to no effect..

That is pretty much a statistical impossibility, at least in one turn... The original author must have been exaggerated. Even an vet AEGIS cannot take "dozens.." of non-vet CMs in one turn. I've run hundreds of tests of CMs vs. various ships to get a very good idea (as Kenny Rogers said) to "know when ot hold 'em and know when to fold 'em". That said, there is no statistical table look up to even the pseudo-random odds in the Civ II program... this means there is a theoretical possibility that even a warrior could survive 100 Stealth Bombers. But I'll just say for practical purposes, it's impossible for a carrier, or any single naval unit, to survive "dozens" of hits, even spread out over 3 or 4 turns. ')

If the enemy has rocketry, you simply must escort any carrier or transport with AEGIS cruisers.

And if the enemy is well-developed (e.g., Radio/Airports), it is folly (esp. at Deity) to approach within 12 tiles of such Ai cities.... The AI's missile function "sees" perfectly, even in its unexplored territory, and will not miss your ship(s). Ever. Vet CMs will destroy a carrier within 3 hits most of the time. Transports in the first strike... unless protected by a healthy BB (which will then be almost dead), or a vet AEGIS. Don't bother to build a late-game "combat" ship unless it is vet, if facing a well-armed AI.


Just remember, there is no "single best" strategy. Let the circumstances dictate.... and the biggest "cheat" in an AI game is the "human's intelligence", LOL... the AI has no chance, even at Deity!

[ferenginar]

That is pretty much a statistical impossibility, at least in one turn... The original author must have been exaggerated. Even an vet AEGIS cannot take "dozens.." of non-vet CMs in one turn. I've run hundreds of tests of CMs vs. various ships to get a very good idea (as Kenny Rogers said) to "know when ot hold 'em and know when to fold 'em". That said, there is no statistical table look up to even the pseudo-random odds in the Civ II program... this means there is a theoretical possibility that even a warrior could survive 100 Stealth Bombers. But I'll just say for practical purposes, it's impossible for a carrier, or any single naval unit, to survive "dozens" of hits, even spread out over 3 or 4 turns. ')

There is no exaggeration here, just some missunderstanding. the carrier was protected by a vet Aegis cruiser. Over a period of 6-8 turns I used the carrier as a base to ferry 10-12 stealth fighters across to the zulu continent. It was at this point that the zulus attacked the carrier with dozens of missiles at about 6 missiles per turn. I admit that there was still a great deal of luck involved.

The reference to one turn was later on after the stealth bombers had supped all zulu defenses, the tamks moved in to capture all the cities in one turn. I did not mean that the entire strategy was one turn. sorry for not making it clearer originally

[.:KNAS:.]

a dozen is 12.....

[starlifter]

There is no exaggeration here, just some missunderstanding. the carrier was protected by a vet Aegis cruiser. Over a period of 6-8 turns I used the carrier as a base to ferry 10-12 stealth fighters across to the zulu continent. It was at this point that the zulus attacked the carrier with dozens of missiles at about 6 missiles per turn. I admit that there was still a great deal of luck involved.

Except in GOTMs and games that are "scored", I love modern combat, and make powerful navies !! Control of the oceans = loss to all opponents on most maps.

From the numbers you posted above, the attacks were coming from non-vet CMs. The real key is that you (meaning anyone who uses AEGIS heavily) don't move your AEGIS each turn, allowing it to repair somewhat. If you send such a ship into 6 CMs per turn, for planning purposes, you should anticipate it's demise. My solution is about 3 Vet AEGIS in a stack, which will allow very good odds of the stack survival at that rate. I do not construct non-Vet modern ships, except transports, BTW.

BTW, 6 veteran CMs per turn will eventually take out even a stack of 3 Vet AEGIS.... you'll need more AEGIS in the stack, or distractions, or interruption of CMs to allow recovery. Once your AEGIS reach a certiain weak point, the Civ II program will select a non-AEGIS ship to defend teh stack, and that ship will likely lose, and thus lose the stack. That is a crock, because IMHO the AEGIS should still be used to defend a CM.... but the algorithm is crappy in this area.

My detail here is not to argue about ferenginar's particular battle, but to make sure others (esp. those new to modern combat) don't rush in to a similar battle and cry in their milk when they lose a stack. CM's often go several turns with light damage, then the "odds" of teh psuedo-random Civ II battle sequence numbers result in several near-consecutive missiles doing huge damage... and that is when a stack goes to Davy Jones' locker if you don't have a good defender left in the stack. So my personal recommendation: STACK VET AEGIS in a heavy CM zone, !

[Bachus]

Starlifter, I think I can tell you a few things.

I use a Civ2 Classic with a 2.42 patch. My carriers can carry up to 20 units safely.

I am also a fan of naval warfare and by chance I had for a few weeks a Civ2 MGE on my computer replacing my Classic Civ. It really drove me crazy, because of the difference between Aegis Cruisers and how the defense unit is selected. In Civ2 Classic, I have made some stats and a Vet AC dies only at the 8th Vet CM. Also, the unit with the best defense is selected, so if I have an AC and a Battleship, the AC will take the first 7 hits, then the B takes one and then they both die when the AC is hit.Of course, these are only stats and variations may occur.

You see now why I use Carriers a lot - they are easy to defend with 2-3 Aegis Cruisers and 1 Battleship for naval attacks. I have to mention that by that period of the game all my units are veteran.

[starlifter]

by Bachus:

I use a Civ2 Classic with a 2.42 patch. My carriers can carry up to 20 units safely

I forgot to caveat my post with the usual sentece about I've only used Civ II MGE, 5.4.0f (31 March 1999) for my tests and basis. I'll probably buy the classic CD as soon as I see it at a local store, just so I can also have the otehr version.

A different team of 3 programmers wrote Civ II MGE.... the same people did not code both the Classic and MGE editions.... hence, there are indeed some "rough edges" for some things.

Like you, all my naval units are Vet. I knew your AEGIS was vet, or would be vet pretty quick, after that pummeling. I've actually destroyed a vet AC with as few as 3 vet CMs before, and as many as 16 (as I recall... it was over a year ago when I ran hundreds of tests).

The main thing I wanted to make sure people knew was not to expect a single AEGIS to protect a valuable pile. It is a crack when you lose a pile and it says "33 units destroyed" or something... that's why I double and triple up stationary AEGIS in a heavy battlezone.