Native Americans vs The Mongol Horde, Round 2

[Xen]

Originally posted by XIII

But then, IIRC, this was the guy insisting that the Native Americans could hold out against the Mongols shld they landed in America...

they could have! the mongol hordliong heads woulkd tumble down the steps of the Mayan pyramids should they have attempted such a feat!

[stalin006]

Originally posted by Xen


they could have! the mongol hordliong heads woulkd tumble down the steps of the Mayan pyramids should they have attempted such a feat!

well the native american way of life and customs are remarcably similar to those of hte mongols, ofcourse it would take a while for the introduction of horses and the union of tribes to be trully equal

[Thorgalaeg]

Honestly, I think Mongols would have ate them for breakfast. LIterally

[Xen]

then why wer eindian tribes able to resist the european colonial powers into the twentith century, when the colonial powers had all the advantages? but if you want to discuss that, I suggest you start a thread for it, no need to trash this one with a huge off topic discusion...

[sw99]

Yeah, just look at the iriqouis and cherokee and sioux nations, very prosperous!

[Xen]

one name-

Commanche

[Knight-Dragon]

A second chance for us all to make fun of Xen again... j/k.

Thread splited.

[Yoda Power]

I think the mongols would have made the indians a part of their army, just as they did it with the turks.

[puglover]

Originally posted by Xen


they could have! the mongol hordliong heads woulkd tumble down the steps of the Mayan pyramids should they have attempted such a feat!

It's incredibly hard to fight with an army on the other side of the planet. And besides, the Mongols were never a naval power so there would be no way to make it there in the first place. Thirdly, it would be really hard to get men AND horses across water. And lastly, the Native Americans knew the lay of the land while the Mongols would be used to the steppes of Mongolia.

Overall, the Native Americans would kick Mongol butt.

[pawpaw]

Originally posted by Xen
then why were indian tribes able to resist the european colonial powers into the twentith century, when the colonial powers had all the advantages?

because the europeans were not concerned with indians but each other, they didn't war on the indians ( rarely) but each other useing the indians as allies . the indians in the east were ground up by continuious warfare of 200 years that they were pawns of. you notice that once the european warfare ended and an independent america came to be that the pace of expansion picked up quite a bit.


p.s. no horses in america in 1300ad, the mongols would of rode right over them.

p.s. no unity among the indian tribes

[Yoda Power]

Originally posted by puglover
And besides, the Mongols were never a naval power so there would be no way to make it there in the first place.

Not true. Kublai Khan had two expedetions(sp?) to Japan, and one to Java! In theory they could have traveled to America

[Knight-Dragon]

Indeed, Khubilai's second Japan expedition, like many latter-day 'Mongol' forces, consisted of more than 100000 Chinese and Korean soldiers and sailors, with a corps of Mongols as 'control'.

The Mongols made good use of their subjects' military capabilities.

[pawpaw]

Originally posted by Yoda Power
Not true. Kublai Khan had two expeditions to Japan, and one to Java! In theory they could have traveled to America

for this thread to work i think we have to assume that kublai could of gathered the ships. (the japanese invasions showed the resources were there )

[Knight-Dragon]

Of course he could - he had the entire Nan-Song navy in his control - thousands of ships. Plus the naval resource of Korea too.

But I think distance wouldl ultimately prove a greater obstacle in conquering America, than the inhabitants, esp considering the natives were still in the Stone Age (?).

[Djingis Khan]

This topic is one of the most stupidest things I've ever read in any discussion board! You know that the mongols could defeat any army they incounted (yes, even the mamluks despite the defeat at Ain Jalut) all over the world. Why the heck should armies who had no horses and no metal weapons be able to manage better than the vast armies of China, Turkestan, Europe, the caliphate and Persia!!!?? The native american peoples - whether the highly cultivated mayans or the wild hunters of the plains - would be totally crushed by the most advanced warmachine of their day. No mongols at all would be killed, whereas the native americans would have either been totally wiped out in their millions or enslaved. The vast cities of the mayas would have felled to the mongol warmachine without any major difficulty, and millions would have died - if not the mongol warriors would kill them the deseases would. We're dealing with such horrible massacres that the conquistadors only could have dreamt of. The subjugation of the new world would have been the easiest conquest ever for the horsemen of the steppes

/DK M

[Thorgalaeg]

I agree this "what if" is a bit absurd. Mongols crushed everybody crossed in his way. Entire civilizations, huge and powerfull armies, ferocius tribes in mountains, cities, castless... even the Alamut fortress (the Hassisiyyum´s (assasins) bastion, considered invulnerable) fell.

[Xen]

Originally posted by XIII
Of course he could - he had the entire Nan-Song navy in his control - thousands of ships. Plus the naval resource of Korea too.

But I think distance wouldl ultimately prove a greater obstacle in conquering America, than the inhabitants, esp considering the natives were still in the Stone Age (?).

depends on the area, a great deal of tribes in mexico had access to copper and tin, and used thoses material to fashion things out of, the main reason they didnt for weapons? Well, we'll take the testiment of the spainards for evidence, as there are records of steel swords being NO match for the obsidian swoards, and axes of the aztecs... which made it even more important for the spainards to have turned all those subjecated tribes to rebellion...

there are many things to consider in such an argument, and I'll address them, if I can, as they come up

BTW- I was hoping this topic would never come up again *darn8

[JamesL]

Also you have to rememeber alot of native americans were not wipe out by the European colonist but by the diseases that preceeded them. IIRC one of the reasons the Spanish destroyed the Incas so easily was because they were in the middle of a civil war having lost their king to an european disease.

I am sure the Mongols would have brought over the same diseases so would any protracted campaign would have brought about the death of millions of native americans trhough illness. So combined with the fact the native americans would not provide united front, had no horses and had bronze age weapons I dont think they would have stood a chance.

However, the Mongols would only interested in the gold rich civilizations of central and southern american. I imagine they would have only left colonies there to extract tribute. So the nothern american tribes probbaly would have been left alone.

[Xen]

as i said before, obsidian is just as strong as fine spanish steel, more then a match for anything the mongols brought over... at least the central american forces had this, as for the rest- the terrain would have killed in conjunction with the natives...

[pawpaw]

Originally posted by Xen
at least the central american forces had this, as for the rest- the terrain would have killed in conjunction with the natives...

this was a very weak time in central american history, the toltec civ had just collasped @1200ad and the aztecs had not risen to replace them yet. so no hordes of obsidian club warriors, just divided warring city-states