Art?

[warpstorm]

Is making games and mods to games a form of art?

[Ozymandias]

Absolutely. Leaving aside, for the moment, the absolutely brilliant graphics work some of you (and you know who are ) are capable of, think of Civ as a collection of very sophisticated building blocks -- which, I might note, can offer significant artistic expression ... or not.

For example, no matter how successful and/or fun to play, most mods simply rearrange the pieces in a very limited and "traditional" number of ways. There is certainly art to this, but I suspect not of the sort you're asking about.

If, however, you treat Civ as an assemblage of components just as any painter views his or her pallette of colors and the limits of the canvas, then the parameters and possible outcomes change, often by an order of magnitude, and not always a pleasing one at that. But, again, the same is true of any painting, montage, etc. -- any complex artifact built of pre-existing pieces might be a beautiful success or an abysmal failure.

Of course, in our case, the art is closer to creative programming than painting. Nevertheless, we are beginning with building blocks which we can look at and use, well, like artists -- that is, non-traditionally, and to significantly different and creative effect.

The example I usually use for this is the "Religious" Civ attribute. Almost everyone gets hung up on the word "religious". Are the Celts "religious" but the Arabs not or vice versa and what do you mean by "religious" anyway? Is Maoism a religion?

-- Instead, ignore the flag label "Religious" -- lose any association you might have with the WORD -- and instead focus on what the flag does (it makes things with this box checked get built faster and changing gov types goes more smoothly) and entirely different dimensions of possibility open up. For example, I model traditional Chinese society as Religious for the smooth-government-transition attribute, and use the "Religious" box on improvements for "Confucian" or "Buddhist" improvements.

Civ is full of such things -- how many modders have even considered the possibilities inherent in the "Replaces Any Improvement With This Flag Checked" flag? I'm experimenting with using this as a flag to model medieval religious conquests: (i) Via Era=None advance, Civs are either Christian, Islam, or Polytheist (ii) each attribute has an associated government type (iii) each government type can, in order, build Cathedral, Mosque, or Temple -- and each of these improvements has the "replacement" flag set. So the conquering Arab Islamic Caliphate takes Antioch from the Byzantines' naturally builds a mosque -- and the cathedral disappears. BTW, it makes for very different gameplay than simply tying the improvement to a government type.

Anyway, with such a "broad-view" approach, I believe it is possible to truly reassemble the Civ blocks into something original, delightful, and revealing -- and given that that's about as good a definition of art as I think one can devise, you thereby have my view on the matter.

All The Best,

Oz

[Bobisback]

well said,

[Kryten]

Originally posted by warpstorm
Is making games and mods to games a form of art?

Hmmmm.....well, as the old cliché says: "what is art?".
To a philistine like myself the answer is: "something to look at".

New games and mods are not just for looking at. They are functional, interactive, almost 'alive', and require responses, decisions and input from the user. Sometimes this is just to present the player with new situations, environments and challenges, and sometimes it is to do all that AND present the player with simulated historical situations, even if they are only abstract representations of reality.

Therefore I'd say that making games and mods to games is NOT 'art'....it is something MORE than that.

[Kryten]

Oops....double post.
(one of the disadvantages of having two typing fingers and only one brain cell I'm afraid )

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by Kryten


Hmmmm.....well, as the old cliché says: "what is art?".
To a philistine like myself the answer is: "something to look at".

Jazz improvisation. The Japanese Tea Ceremony. Theater involving audience participation. Looking at one thing and, by the artist's hand, being led to see something else entirely. Or perhaps the ultimate rules-driven-yet-utterly-free-of-rules piece of music ever written, J.S.Bach's Die Kunst Der Fuge (The Art Of Fugue).

Therefore I'd say that making games and mods to games is NOT 'art'....it is something MORE than that.

Okay you're forgiven

Yours Stroking A Sculpture Designed To Be Touched, Not Seen --

Oz

[warpstorm]

Originally posted by ozymandias

Anyway, with such a "broad-view" approach, I believe it is possible to truly reassemble the Civ blocks into something original, delightful, and revealing -- and given that that's about as good a definition of art as I think one can devise, you thereby have my view on the matter.

Oz, thank you. This is the type of answer I was looking for.

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by warpstorm


Oz, thank you. This is the type of answer I was looking for.

My pleasure.

Dare I quote T.S.Eliot? --

"We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time."

And that includes even Civ

All The Best,

Oz