The great Library, wonder or hinder?

[saintly_saint]

Hi EV one,

I'm starting a game, and at 1600BC I am considering the building of the GL i hear from a lot of texts that GL is a key wonder, but considering to things a) that education is just a few advances away and b)that i am relatively advanced in technology, i don't nkow whether or not i should do it,

I'd apreciate any feedback.

[Zardnaar]

Another thing to consider is do you want one of the AIs to get it and get free tech off you for example. You also get the culture points for building it. Put researching education off for a while to get max use out of it.

[saintly_saint]

Zard: this is the way i consider this, the onyl use for me of the GL is to get it and then launch a total commercial run, thus making trem. gold and moderate techs since all AIs are on relatively equal tech footing cuz they trade them off as soon as they get 'em. what do you think ?

[Strider]

I say you build it... it'll keep one of the other AI's from catching up and trading the techs to the other AI's... making them even stronger.

[cracker]

The key variables that you ommitted from your first post would include "What difficulty level are you playing at??" and " Do you have accelerated production or other altered rules engaged?"

Since you indicate that that you are technologically advanced and nearing education at 1600BC that would tend to indicate that you may have altered the game by engaging accellerated production and that you probably are playing the game at a level below Monarch.

In general, building the Great Library has most value in games at Monarch or Emperor level and at lower difficulties it is just unnecessary since your opponents are so handicapped by the penalty factors.

[OneFastWarrior]

Yes, Listen to cracker!

6 months ago, I would not have been able to answer your question. I did not even see crackers response here before I looked. But when I read your question, Crackers response was pretty much what I was thinking!

[saintly_saint]

cracker : no i' not on acc. production, i'm on regent and i've got LITERATure at 1600BC. thats what i meant

[kb2tvl]

I would not bother with building the GL if education is only a few techs away. I would use it as a prebuild for the sistine chaple.

[Scratcher]

I hope this is not considered threadjacking , but I also have a question whether the GL is a wonder or a hinderance.

I play a competent game at regent level PTW and never really consider the GL as a must build wonder. In my last game (huge pangaea) I built the GL (and then the usual 10% science and gold save - military technique) and found that the AI also seemed to research very slowly and the techs were "given" at a very slow rate. (I had found 14 of the 15 other civs due to the Great Lighthouse).

Now normally my research and trading technique yeilds a faster devolopment. Has anyone else experienced this?

[wilbill]

Scratcher, at Regent level the usefulness of the GL is going to depend on the situation in a given game. As Cracker pointed out, when you get to Monarch or higher the AI;s will frequently be ahead of you in technology at that point in the game and the GL can be a "must" build. At Regent, if you're ahead of the AI's, obviously it's not very important. And, yes, in the situation you described, you probably just slowed yourself down by building the GL and cutting your research.

[Sarevok]

it does become a must build among the ranks of the pyramids and the art of war. as willbill said though, its only effective if your behind the opposition.

[FenrysWulf]

When I get the Great Library I never seem to get any technologies from it, even if I'm behind in techs, so I question it's usefulness. I'd have someone build it if you can spare a city, just because I try to build every wonder, but if you miss out I wouldn't worry about it.

[TheNiceOne]

Originally posted by FenrysWulf
When I get the Great Library I never seem to get any technologies from it, even if I'm behind in techs, so I question it's usefulness. I'd have someone build it if you can spare a city, just because I try to build every wonder, but if you miss out I wouldn't worry about it.

You get every tech currently owned by at least two other known civs. So if only one AI civ knows a tech, you will not get it, but as soon as another civ researches the tech or trades for it, you will also get it, for free at the start of the next turn. This continues until the turn after you get education.
If you're behind in techs and don't get the techs, then you either have education, or there is only one known civ that has the lead.

[TheNiceOne]

Originally posted by Scratcher
I play a competent game at regent level PTW and never really consider the GL as a must build wonder. In my last game (huge pangaea) I built the GL (and then the usual 10% science and gold save - military technique) and found that the AI also seemed to research very slowly and the techs were "given" at a very slow rate. (I had found 14 of the 15 other civs due to the Great Lighthouse).

Now normally my research and trading technique yeilds a faster devolopment. Has anyone else experienced this?

Yes, many times on monarch and regent. But still, I think its an excellent use of GL that greatly helps you.

The research rate will be slowed, but for every additional turn before education, you have your research at 0% and therefore gains 50-200 gpt, while none of the AI builds up their cash. You can also sell any techs you get for free to the remaining AI civs for a few additional gpt/resources.

So, by the time you get education, you'll have several thousands of gold and finished infastructure in all your cities. Now, you can use this gold to rush universities if you want to keep the peace, or mass-upgrade or rush an army of knights if you want to fight. Either way, you'll have the gold necessary to leave all the other behind.

[ToadFaerie]

Playing on regent, monarch, and emperor, I have found that the GL is most useful for it's culture: it can be built early, and will end up offering 12 culture per turn. Every game I've had so far, I was able to buy and trade technology such that the GL provides not more than 3 techs. Perhaps that's significant, but at the rate I seem to be able to generate gold, that's really on 4 turns of waiting for the cash to buy a tech.

[budweiser]

I never thought of this, but if you want to make ancient war, then the GL is good because, it can effectively stretch out the ancient era. You just turn science off, and make military units. The science will advance at the rate of the ai. Take a civ with a decent ancient UU, Rome, Persia, Celts, Greece etc, etc (actually any American or Medditerraean civ) and make lots of war. So many civs now have ancient UUs now that you have many choices.

[Scratcher]

TheNiceOne, the points you raised are all valid, and are the expected benefits of building the GL. Due to the slow AI technology reaserch I was indeed able to amass gold, military and when I wanted I was able to beeline to Milatary Tradition to give the extra edge of the cavalry. By the time I was given Education I was already in possesion of nearly half the world. My point was that the date that I was in a position to win seemed to be later than I would expect when not building the GL myself.

[TheNiceOne]

Originally posted by Scratcher
TMy point was that the date that I was in a position to win seemed to be later than I would expect when not building the GL myself.

...and that's a valid point. If you're in a position to both lead the tech race and build up the economy/production for an army that can crush your neighbours at the same time, then relying on the GL's tech rate is a waste of time. However, if you're not in such a strong position, then every additional turn on zero research improves your strength and makes the conquest easier when you go for it.

So this is mostly a good strategy on monarch-emperor when you can except to get the GL on a not-too high cost, and where you still may need its help to be able to crush your neighbours.

BTW, when I go for the GL, I stop research alltogether as soon as I've discovered literacy. I have pre-built the GLto be sure to get it. I then sell literacy (when I'm absolutely sure that noone will beat me to the GL) and gain a few techs, but is happy to fall far behind in science until I finish the GL. By doing this, I'm already rich when the GL kicks in, and can use this money to launch a war already at the late ancient age.

[tao]

You also have to consider several other points:[list=1][*]number of civs (the more civs, the easier to trade for techs)[*]are you playing a scientific civ (getting free tech on entering Middle Ages)[*]number of other scientific civs in the game[*]instead of GLib, you could build 13 swords/horsemen; will this enable you to take out another civ? with Pyramids? Or GLib?[*]could a war give you a Great Leader to build the GLib?[/list=1]Unless I have a very specific goal, I tend to not trying for it.

[Scratcher]

Tao, The items on your list are also reasons why I never consider the GL a must build wonder. However, on my recent game (huge, archipeligo, 15 other civs, starting alone on a not very friutful island) I desided that the GL, in this instance, would be a good investment. I was just suprised at the "slow" technology rate of the game. Maybe it is not entirely due to the fact that I built the GL but due to the map conditions.

Edit: My previous post was a little misleading when I stated pangaea - I was actually playing an archipeligo map - sorry for this!

But is it possible that the AI also deliberately slows their research rate if the player gets the GL and follows the zero research/mass military build up route? Having not built the GL often, especially on map conditions where the player and AI can easily meet and trade, I am unsure if my experience was normal and the GL is more of a hinderance than a wonder.