Advice needed for Sid...

[anarres]

Ok, I'm getting trashed on about a third of my Sid games if I play Ironman (no reloads). On most of these games I can salvage it if I reload back a few turns (mostly from sneak attacks that I can't afford to plan for, but I can go back and get units there with a reload). The reloading thing is mainly because I am learning sid, and without reloading those games they would be lost.

I want strategies for Sid!! Min research seems to not pay. Maths is researched by the AI very quickly now, and even if I get that quick I haven't won a 50-turn gamble on Currency either (I haven't even come within 10 turns of winning a gamble).

So. No tech gamble means no techs. The AI trade rate of 200% means everyone knows all the techs much quicker than you. The best I got was about 5 techs total before every other AI had traded around everything they had, and that is by 2000BC or so.

Wonders. I never really tried for ancient wonders on Deity (unless the AI were hampered or it presented itself to me with a leader), and on Sid they are totally out of your league. By 1000BC the AI manage to build every ancient wonder. All of them.

So, it seems to be 'back to the drawing board'. This reminds me of playing the original deity where you got mad tech paces and were always fighting half an age behind. For example - in my current game the Dutch have Swiss Mercs running around by 1500BC.

So, anyone got any tips? I have read the sid level SG's and they seem to be the same - minimal builds in cities (either granary or barracks, or very occasionally both - if you have no decent settler factories with high food)...

I guess one question is which traits have people found useful? Scientific is pretty much my favourite PTW trait, and even on Deity I am building libraries and out-researching the AI by Code of Laws/Philosophy time. On Sid this would seem to be worthless, or even a dangerous use of resources.

Agricultural seems a total waste in the early game if you don't get fresh water. I am really not sure if this trait is worth the risk on Sid.

Not sure how the other traits play out on Sid level....

[Bamspeedy]

Seafaring on an island map is definitely one that can work on Sid. Island maps are most certainly winnable on Sid. Pangea maps, sure would be a big monster to tackle.

I think Agriculture would be worth the gamble. If you have no fresh water near your start, your game is over anyways on this level, no matter what trait you pick.

I think Seafaring is more of a gamble than agriculture if you are generating maps where everything is set to random.

The dutch are a great civ for Sid, but on pangea maps they may not be so hot (because of seafaring). Sure, they have a defensive UU, but on Sid, you will be defending alot more than attacking.

Ancient wonders-I've gotten the Great Library, but only on maps where none of the AI started with Alphabet and they were pretty isolated.

Minimum research gambit-Only in same situation as above for ancient wonders. I got a 50 turn research on writing to work. In this situation, when the 50 turn research worked on writing, it also worked on Literature. Math and polytheism the AI gets pretty quick now.

I don't see self-research ever being really feasible on Sid until possibly the industrial age and only if the AI is busy killing each other. Your only hope is a combination of: trading while the AI hasn't contacted each other yet (or are busy fighting each other), having resources to trade for techs, by stealing techs with your diplomat and then pick up a few with a lone scientist. The ones you get from the lone scientists you probably won't be able to get anything for it, but it saves you from spending resources to buy/steal it. Even when you get to the industrial age, it will cost you ~10,000+gold to research Combustion, vs. about 1500 gold to steal it. Even if you fail half the time, you are better off stealing it.

[Moonsinger]

Because of the long bug list (especially the issue of corruption and FP), I haven't yet checked out Conquests. However, my first thought for the Sid level is that I would set my reseach slider to zero. Unless I'm in the middle age, I don't even want to waste my 1 scientist on it. By setting research to zero and saving my 1 scientist for something else, I will be making at least 50 extra gold in every 50 turns and will use that money to buy techs.

[Bamspeedy]

That 50 gold won't help much at all. A tech that costs 1000 gold on deity will cost 1500 gold on Sid. And that happens as soon as Fuedalism (actually in the ancient era if you count the government techs).

[Hygro]

Originally posted by Bamspeedy
That 50 gold won't help much at all. A tech that costs 1000 gold on deity will cost 1500 gold on Sid. And that happens as soon as Fuedalism (actually in the ancient era if you count the government techs).

but 50 gpt earns 1500 gold in 30 turns, which is faster than a fifty turn research. So isn't it benificial afterall?

[col]

Thats 50 gold in 50 turns which is 1gpt not 50gpt.

Sid sounds like a very masochistic experience.....

[Moonsinger]

Try the Sid level again today with the Mayan. I just noticed when it comes to trading tech, the AIs are way too smart. I met both the American and the Inca very early in the game and I had around 200 gold in my bank. Both of them told me that told me that they will give me The Wheel for 200 plus 2 gpt (not a bad deal, but since I don't like running around with zero cash on hand, I decided to wait a little bit to meet more civs and to get a better deal down the road, etc). About 20 turn later, I asked them to sell me The Wheel again, and this time, they both told me 360 gold plus 6gpt. A little bit later, 400 gold plus 6gpt.

Basically, the cost of the Wheel is constantly going up even long after the tech is obsoleted. My theory is that the more money I have in the bank, the higher the price I have to pay for tech. Therefore, it's really pointless to keep money in the bank. More testing is needed to verify this theory.

[SirPleb]

That sure is weird Moonsinger! The difference between the last two tries could be just because you had a bit more money and they have a bit of leeway in their requests. But the difference from the first try is huge. I wonder what factor is making the difference? Could it be time, your size, whether you have horses connected yet, how many other Civs they know (the reverse side of the modifier we're used to ), or what? Sure seems odd.

I've given up C3C for now, have returned to PTW. But I did try huge/pangaea/15rivals a few times at Sid level and the results were brutal. I have no idea yet how to beat it.

One thing I noticed is that I never got anything "useful" from goody huts at Sid level as an expansionist Civ. I got maps, gold, and units. No techs, no settlers, no villages. So I think the expansionist trait is probably not worthwhile at Sid level, the main thing it accomplishes is quicker exploration and contacts.

And since goody huts aren't much use to the human player it might be best to go with the "no barbarians" setting.

[Moonsinger]

Yes, they caught me by surprise, SirPleb. I can't believe they actually increase the price like that. I just started another sid game and keeping track of their offers this time. I have noticed that the price that they willing to accept is really based on the strength of my civ. The more gold I have or the stronger I get, the higher price I have to pay for tech (a little bit similar to the value of luxury). However, there is a cap. After a certain point, the price would stop going up. And if I meet another civ, the price would drop by 10 gold (wow! they increase by a hundred then drop only 10 )

PS: I think the secret is weapon to beat Sid is the specialist. Since each tax collector get pay double and triple research point for each scientist, the ICS style would give us the most specialists.

[DrSpike]

What's the mechanism by which the cost of buying tech goes up from say Deity to Sid?

[DrSpike]

Ah I see, just 6/4.

[anarres]

That's the cost factor ratio. On deity it is 6 for the AI, and on Sid it is 4 for the AI.

This means that your research cost increase is 225% of normal on Sid (10/4) compared to 167% of normal on Deity (10/6). This is slightly different from 6/4, but close.

Of course, this isn't the cost of buying techs, but the cost of buying will be based on research cost.

[anarres]

I have found agricultural to be very hit and miss on Sid. If you don't get fresh water it is a useless trait under despotism, but if you get the fresh water it is a huge bonus.

The Dutch are great fun to play with on island maps, and my success rate has soared (especially when I start with rivers).

The science thing is a real killer. On Deity I tend to be the tech lead out of the ancient age (or never more than a tech or two behind at most). On Sid I haven't had any tech luck yet.

The diminishing returns on goddy huts as you go up the levels seems to hold true on Sid - I haven't had a single settler or tech from a hut in any Sid game yet, and I am close to deciding to leave huts alone on this level for good.

[DrSpike]

Cheers..........to a certain extent I answered my own question. Be assured it is not a ploy to rack up posts.

I assume the AI tech trading numbers that appear with the cost factor correspond to how cheaply the AI's will trade with each other? Obviously the numbers go up with difficulty.........what's the benchmark?

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by anarres
The diminishing returns on goddy huts as you go up the levels seems to hold true on Sid - I haven't had a single settler or tech from a hut in any Sid game yet, and I am close to deciding to leave huts alone on this level for good. [/B]

I agree, and it's not good to have to ignore huts for fear of barbs. I've stopped popping in the early game for Demigod+ starts.

[Moonsinger]

The expansionist is totally useless on Sid. I have never gotten anything out of the huts except for gold, map, and warrior which totally useless (IMO). Out of the three games I played as the American, I popped over 50 huts and not one of them give me a tech or a settler. At this point, I think the Mayan is the best tribe for Sid.