Alan Nicoll's How I Play Civ2: comments

[SlowThinker]

This thread is related to <A HREF="http://www.civfanatics.com/civ2howplay1.shtml">How I Play Civ2</A>
Its purpose is to publish inaccuracies that were found in that article.

The main reason we started to make "condensed" threads at Apolyton is that many articles at "Hints and tips" section of Apolyton contain an old and invalid information sometimes. It is worth to connect articles with threads so that they may be debated and corrected.
(Alan Nicoll, I think you could add a link to this thread into your "How I Play Civ2"...)



[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited June 02, 2001).]

[SlowThinker]

Goody Huts

The point is that if you "release hordes of barbarians," you'll have time to get in the first attack. If you are exploring with a Warrior, even a fraction of a movement point will allow you to fortify.

It is true, but the fortification won't take an effect during the attack of the barbarian (I suppose he will attack immediately).

The Economics of Rush Building

I think there may be a simple formula for a rusbuild of a unit. See my Post 5 in <A HREF="http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2421">When to rushbuild, and when not?</A>. ( Sun Tzu, don't click there, it is at Apolyton!)

[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited June 02, 2001).]

[SunTzu]

Ok i won't I'll find the time somehow to read Nicole's guide then i'll post my comments.

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[Alan_Nicoll]

Slowthinker sez:

It is true, but the fortification won't take an effect during the attack of the barbarian (I suppose he will attack immediately).

I think at 2x movement you get instant effective fortification, but at normal movement what you say is certainly true.

I think there may be a simple formula for a rusbuild of a unit. See my Post 5 in When to rushbuild, and when not?.

Your formula looks correct, and is indeed simpler than what I have. Thanks for the input. I will include a link to this thread.

[EyesOfNight]

I got through the first couple of paragraphs and I couldn't stop laughing.

[Erdrick]

Eyesofnight:

Care to give some examples from the article? What in particular made you laugh?

[drake]

Eyesofnight:
Care to give some examples from the article? What in particular made you laugh?

It's different from what he does and is obviously inferior because of it......you silly goose

[Alan_Nicoll]

I'm always gratified to see my judgment of Eyes' character confirmed. What's surprising is that some still take him seriously.

[Alan_Nicoll]

Astonishing how Eyes always makes himself the subject of any thread. What's surprising is that some still take him seriously. Is there any way to get this idiot banned for life?

[Sargon]

I thought Alan_Nicholl's article had some great ideas (although I don't have the patience for micromanagement to the point of accounting for every single shield).
I also have a question about the PDS strategy. I find that if I go into Republic too early, the extra maintenance costs, and particularly the extra maintenance on settlers, slows down production and expansion. I tend to stay in Monarchy until the rate of tech advance starts slowing. Is there a way around this, or do the benefits of growth just outweigh the costs? I have never really exploited "We Love the Consul Day" fully as described in the article.

[Sargon]

Sorry about the mis-spelling of Alan_Nicoll.

[starlifter]

About rushbuilding:

Beginning at teh mid-game, I very very rarely build an improvement from scratch. It normally gets one (or a few) turns of production, then partially rushed (e.g., Bank is bought up to 100 shields, with 7 shields per turn in production). In late game, almost no improvement is allowed to complete by itself.

For units, incremental rush buying is common for me, especially partial incremental rush buying.

In the early game, you need a hundred gold in reserve to bribe barbs, but in late game, it is not a worry becuase freight is worth 2,000 to 4,000 gold and money is no object.

[Duke of Marlbrough]

Alan, you said

"Leonardo's and Sun Tzu don't work well together, because upgrading via Leonardo's loses veteran status."

I actually think they make a great combo. It means that your newly upgraded unit will be a vet the next time it fights. So not only will the unit I have be newer (i.e. stronger), but it will also be a vet the next time someone fights it.

Otherwise it may take several combats to get vet status for the unit, by that time there might be a new tech that upgrades it and then you have to wait again for vet status.

Besides, there is noting like having a spot where the computer always attacks (with land units, or navy) and rotating your units in the city for them to get their combat experiance then move in a 'fresh' unit to gain vet status. I usually do this once my warriors reach riflemen.

Any thoughts on this?

Otherwise, you have some great ideas and I'm glad you took the time to write them all down for us.

[starlifter]

Leonardo and SunTzu make a great combo, as noted by others, but the real power for me is the navy. It seems that anytime peers meet on the high seas, my ships lose. It is therefore important that my ships do not fave peers. This means when Leos takes my ironclads to destroyers, the destroyers will find a ripe target like a caravel or phalanx to get quick vet status... then they are ready to face enemy ships and win.

So I love SunTzu's expecially for the navy!

[Alan_Nicoll]

Sargon sez:

I thought Alan_Nicholl's article had some great ideas (although I don't have the patience for micromanagement to the point of accounting for every single shield).

I don't either, except when I have very few cities. There generally isn't that much time in multiplayer, which is about all I play any more.

I also have a question about the PDS strategy. I find that if I go into Republic too early, the extra maintenance costs, and particularly the extra maintenance on settlers, slows down production and expansion. I tend to stay in Monarchy until the rate of tech advance starts slowing. Is there a way around this, or do the benefits of growth just outweigh the costs? I have never really exploited "We Love the Consul Day" fully as described in the article.

The whole point of early Republic is to go to WLTC as soon as possible. If you're not going to WLTC immediately, Monarchy is fine. But if you try the early WLTC (in 2x production King level) I guarantee you'll be impressed. You should get new tech every 2 turns for quite a while, something that will leave the best Monarchy in the dust eventually, if you have time to work unmolested.

Regarding Leo's and Sun Tzu together, Leo's reduces the value of Sun Tzu because upgraded units lose veteran status. So maybe Sun Tzu loses 10% of its value. This is not what I would describe as a "great combo." This seems to me both undeniable and unremarkable, but it might be worth reconsidering how this is expressed in "How I Play."

Duke of Marlborough sez:

Besides, there is noting like having a spot where the computer always attacks (with land units, or navy) and rotating your units in the city for them to get their combat experiance then move in a 'fresh' unit to gain vet status. I usually do this once my warriors reach riflemen.

Any thoughts on this?

Sounds like a good trick if you have time enough for that kind of micromanagement.

Thanks to all those who have expressed kind words for this humble slave's unworthy efforts.

[Duke of Marlbrough]

I just wanted to point out that maybe your wording could be changed a bit. I agree that Leo's does lessen the full benefit of Sun Tzu, but they still work well together.

I micromanage every chance I get. Since I have no set times when I am available, I am pretty much doomed to play SP. I am always trying to invent ways to keep my self entertianed when playing the Comp.

[EyesOfNight]

I am beginning to find this newbie talk from you nicoll unbearable.

[starlifter]

by Alan_Nicoll:

Regarding Leo's and Sun Tzu together, Leo's reduces the value of Sun Tzu because upgraded units lose veteran status. So maybe Sun Tzu loses 10% of its value. This is not what I would describe as a "great combo."

I must disagree... In fact, the two used in tandem are almost unstoppable, at least in terms of efficiency, for about 1,500 years. Every time critical units are upgraded, esp. Ironclads to Destroyers, musketeers to Riflemen, and Dragoons to Cavalry... you can easily regain Vet status on a "soft" target, like a pre-gunpowder unit, dip, or caravan.

In effect, this almost nullifies my single biggest hesitation about annointing Leonardo's the "most powerful" wonder status.... namely that Brian & Sid wisely removed vet status from any vet units that are upgraded (I will still take MC in most circumstances over Leo's in a non-OCC Deity game, though).

Since I believe in a strong navy from mid-game onwards, and vet status is absolutely essential to guarantee victories at sea amongst A/D peers (eg, ironclads vs. destroyers)... SunTzu is critical for projecting as much power as possible and maximizing the value of Leo's.

Vets do not take as much damage when the battle is done, and hence recover faster and destroy more. So the guarantee of gaining vet status by attacking an "easy" target with a newly-upgraded unit allows democracies to fight with the same effectiveness, but using fewer units... thus reducing unhappiness and shield support.

Even if used improperly by an opponent, SunTzu/Leo will cause more damage to your units in battle, and reduce your own military effectiveness.


So bottom line... the combo of SunTzu and Leonardo's is awesome in mid-game, if used properly.

[SlowwHand]

Originally posted by EyesOfNight:
I am beginning to find this newbie talk from you nicoll unbearable.

Then stay out of thread.
Real simple solution.



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[starlifter]

posted July 05, 2001 12:55 PM
Quote: in the bit he talks about King Richard's Crusade

"Factories cost so much to build (200 shields) and 4 gold per turn I'm often curious whether they're really worth building. (I'm even less sure about Manufacturing Plants, Solar Plants, and the like"

To understand just how valuable Factories are, one needs to look at the underlying mathematics of the game. I won't do that here (because math=not so much fun ), but I'll give an overview: if a city produces about 8 or more shields per turn, a factory (with Hoover Dam) is easily worth the construction and upkeep (4 gold). Remember, the "normal" value of a shield is at least 2 gold.

Manufacturing plants cost much more in inial outlay and recurring costs, and my own break-even is 20 natural shields, based mainly on the primary late-game use: to get a city up to 50 or more shields per turn to make freight. Manufacturing + Solar = Bargain if your city can produce 80 or more shields per turn. You need 32 natural shields to do this, however. Offshore platforms are one of the most powerful improvements in the game... without them, about half of the cities would never produce 40/44/54/80 shields, even with factories, etc.

In civ2 for me the most important stage in the game is industralisation:

1. transports: at last trading with caravans is easy -hopefully i have magellans

Industrialization is a very key advance, esp. for trade as you point out!

2. Women suff is vital if u want to be a democracy.

3. factories in good cities make them powerhouses of ironclad production...and ironclads rule.

20-30 Vet Ironclads (and vet destroyers) will rule the seas in mid-game! And all coastal cities can be taken without population destruction!

My general rule: "Every coastal city makes/supports an Ironclad!"... at times, I've spent up to about 3,300 gold to produce several dozen ironclads on the first available turn, LOL...

And then, most civs (like the ones in GOTM 6) never make it past Industrialization .