re-loading and the 2 types of CIVers

[Ision]

Just finished reading yet another thread about the 'morality' of re-loading or using the 'save game' option to change results - the responses are always interesting and betray a lot about people, here's my take on the question:

It's a question of what you enjoy - two types of CIVers in general (with a lot of in-betweeners) the 'drama civers' and the 'joy civers'

Joy CIVers usually settle in at regent/monarch and play for the joy of the game - they win 95% of the time - but still hold interest in the game - it's the small little stresses and overcoming small setbacks that they enjoy - they enjoy the game one turn at a time - CIV is one among many computer games they play - they edit the game in favor of their own CIV or favorite units - to them re-playing the same turn using 'save game' is just another strat - they reload regularly - and always will - - no shame, it's your game and your having fun like this - joy civers tend (not always) to be more builder types.

Drama CIVers play 1 game at a time, it's the high stress - and often the great come from behind victory that they love - CIV is often one of the few computer games they play - they usaully cheat; in favor of the AI (self imposed rules to help the AI)! and they edit the game in favor of the AI ! - to them 'save game' is strickly in case the power goes out - the drama CIVer rarely reloads - for him it's a pride thing - he shoots for Emp-demi- or deity level. They tend (not always) to be more warmongering types.

Joy Civers consider 'drama civers' as a little anal and people that take the game too seriously

Drama Civers consider joy Civers as lazy and lacking compititiveness

As for me, Ision, ......... I am a drama CIVer that stopped judging the others for their play style.

Ision

ps: to all Drama CIVers - if there were no 'joy' CIVers we wouldn't have this game - trust me they are the VAST majority of players, and their money keeps the CIV series alive -

[SirPleb]

Very nice Ision! I think that's a rather good categorization of players.

I often find the "morality of reloading" question a bit amusing. I don't see how reloading can be moral or immoral without giving a context.

To me it seems clear that reloading is immoral if and only if it is cheating.

In the context of GOTM or HOF play that makes it clear-cut. Those contexts have rules which include no reloading. Participation implies agreement to abide by the rules. So reloading in these events is immoral.

But in the context of individual play, outside of any rules agreed with others? Whether reloading is cheating in this context is entirely up to the individual. I hope there aren't many people who both think that reloading is cheating and nonetheless do it. They're the only ones for whom it might be immoral. But they can judge themselves on that, no one else should. I'm pretty sure it would make them unhappy - they'd view themselves as cheaters. They should either stop reloading or change their mind to consider reloading to be ok. For everyone except that group there can be no question of being immoral. Some reload and it is ok, they're not cheating, they're just having fun. Some don't reload and that's ok too.

Furthermore, I'd suggest the following to anyone who feels that perhaps reloading in private play is cheating, just because other people insist that is so: Don't worry about it. If it feels ok to you, there's no need to consider what others think about it. It is just a game for your amusement. When you start getting tired of it I do recommend that you try it again with a "no reload" rule to see if that makes it fun again - it might.

So, back to where I started, I don't really get the question of morality/cheating in reloading. I think more interesting questions would be whether people restrict themselves from reloading or not, and whether people see themselves as "joy" players, "drama" players, or something else.

[ainwood]

This isn't really a strategy & tips discussion! But it can be saved!

I pretty-much agree with everything written above. Reloading is cheating when it affects other people's enjpyment. Eg the GOTM, the tournament and the HOF. However, when playing for yourself only, there's nothing wrong with it, but I think it is better if it is done for a purpose.

For those "joy" civers , I would suggest that they don't reload at every turn, because they will become relient on it. They won't improve at all, because reloading takes the place of good strategy. For the drama civers, reloading is an important tool, that when used correctly, can help in improving their strategies.

Of course, there's always the people who play for the sheer fun of it all the time, and don't care if they don't improve. But I think that a game really has longevity if you can always get better and better at it.

[Krayzeenbk]

I am a hardcore non-reloader but I find it funny how this seems to be turning into an anti-reloader thread

[Kaboth]

Reloading really helps less experienced players adapt to different situations. The problem is it can become addictive. On my last regent ptw game I used 22 save files, Carthagians1, 2, 3, 4, etc I didn't need more than one but they were a nice safety net. In C3c I have calmed my habit 2 two save files

[Capt Buttkick]

I guess I'm a Joy-civer who likes the occasional plunge into Drama-civing
I mean for my own games, I try to reduce reloads, but I've got no probs abiding with the gotm rules. If, in one particular gotm, I feel like I have more to learn by reloading, I won't submit. This has happened on occasion and is how I learnt the power of artillery, even early artillery like catapults.

[Offa]

I agree that reloading is not cheating, unless you are playing a competitive game that disallows it.

The game is actually more fun if you don't reload, but I can easily see why some folk haven't been convinced of that.

I have replayed some games (GOTM) after completing them (ie reloaded either the start or earlier save) and gained a great deal from this, both in fun and understanding. I certainly don't think of this as cheating, but don't regard such efforts as proper games either.

[Ribannah]

I am a 100% with Ainwood on this one. I always feel sorry if I see people not playing a game to its full potential. Like always using the 'simple rules' and shying away from the 'advanced rules'. Or worse, playing a game only because 'those little men look so funny' instead of actually trying to beat their opponents (AI or human), which would move the focus to strategy where - to me - the true strength of a game lies and the real enjoyment begins.

SMAC has an iron-man mode. It would be nice if Civ had that as well.

[Flavor Dave]

I reload IF AND ONLY IF I
a) accidentally moved a unit to the wrong square, and that unit is important. (Early in the game, one swordsman is a big part of your army.
b) I was just too lazy to reinforce a newly taken city properly and it flips. I properly reinforce it, and if it still flips, that's on me.

I'm probably 75% drama civver. I'm starting to get a real handle on emperor in Civ 3. But I doubt I'll be moving up to deity, because the game is getting hard for me to concentrate on, and my Championship Manager should be coming in January.

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Excellent analysis. My only gripe is that ultimately "drama" players are playing for the joy of it just as much as "joy" players. They just en*joy* a different style of play.

[Krayzeenbk]

Yes, I just enjoyed it when my capital was sacked by barbarians who defeated 2 of my warriors without taking a scratch (grr) 13 turns into the game. I am now massively first nevertheless If I had reloaded (not that I even thought about it), I would not be enjoying the game nearly as much as I am now.

[Kaboth]

Could someone mod up an Iron man rule, that would be great. Just make the game crash after a save lol

[Zardnaar]

On Monarch I don't reload. On Emperor 1 reload won me the game. Back to monarch to master some different civs and playstyles- and no reloads.

[Ision]

Bravo ZARD!

[Krayzeenbk]

I'm sure if we got someone to disassemble the game we could get some illegal operations going every time you press ok on the save dialog without any problems

[zerksees]

I am a drama civer for sure. Sometimes I can't think of anything else. Always plotting the next move, refining my approach in my mind for the next night's play.

I did reload once in my first emperor game, which I was losing badly. I resigned it as a loss and then made adjustments to avoid a sneak attack so I could play further and learn more about the game.

However, if you want to reload a thousand times to help you get to the end or avoid mistakes, have fun! Who cares - no one but me is telling me to play the game the way I do.

[Zardnaar]

Originally posted by Ision
Bravo ZARD!

Jungle start to as the Greeks. Got 2-3 OK cities anyway.

Domination victory this time methinks.

[Longasc]

Hm. Default Rule is preserve RANDOM SEED.

I really like this. The only way to cheat a fight result is to fight another unit first and get a better seed for your next try, but hell, the computer attacks yield him always the same results on his turn at least.

I am a little sad that those conquests scenarios have no preserve random seed option enabled!

I cheated some times in northern africa to hold a city only defended by a crippled Legion.

chance makes love and thieves, playing with preserve random seeds always made me play "fair" because I had no option of saving/reloading until things go in my favor.

So I am still a joy civer. I rely on preserving the random seed to avoid me become addicted to the save/reload game.

[DasScoot]

I'm a joy-civer, but mainly because I stick to lower difficulty levels. I do reload on occaision, but I keep the random seed - I only do it to reverse seriously bad decisions, like the times when a city culture flips on me with 6 armies inside.

[Krayzeenbk]

Grrr! Just move up in difficulty and get it over with :rant: