Roman Fear of Feudalism

[Isca]

This is only sort of a Conquests issue. It's more accurately post-PTW. I never got PTW, so only discovered the problem since getting Conquests. Apologies if this was discussed ages ago.

Prologue finished.

When Rome develops Feudalism, three things occur (ignoring the new government):

1. Access to Pikemen
2. Access to Medieval Infantry
3. Obsolescence of Legionary

This is a disaster!

Start with point two. Medieval Infantry is more expensive than a Legionary and is, I believe, an inferior unit. Without getting technical, a 3-3 is better than a 4-2 (if I understand the combat system correctly).

You can build a pikeman if you want the 3 defense, at the SAME COST as your Legionary was! And it's got a whopping offense of 1!

Firaxis, if you're out there, can you please not make the Legionary upgrade to Medieval Infantry, and not make them obsolete?

I don't think they need to upgrade until Riflemen.

The slightly more subtle problem is that typically as Rome you'll have gazillions of Legionaries, as they're the perfect balanced unit. Upgrade them all to Medieval Infantry, and you have lost all your defenders!

I actually quit the game I was playing out of frustration.

I then got to wondering if there were any similar upgrade nightmares, but have yet to summon the brainpower to tackle the problem...

[Frimlin]

When I play Rome, I just never upgrade to Med. Infantry. But I'm guessing the AI would, without the same hesitation as I -- which could indeed be an issue.

I'd rather they moved it into another line -- like upgrades to Knights or something. Sure that's Foot Unit to Horse Unit, but hey! I don't think just because Horses started being used more that suddenly a whole load of Legionaries refused to mount them.

But then, this is coming from the guy that thinks Cavalry should upgrade to Tanks.

[The Last Conformist]

I actually prefer Medieval Infantry over Legionaries. Sure, a Legionary has the advantage over a Medieval both on attack and defense, but that's not what counts. What counts is that the Medieval is better at knocking down those dastardly enemy Pikemen.

Also, I don't use Legionaries much for defensive purposes. Spearmen are cheap, get the job done most of the time, and upgrade to Mech Inf. Legionaries only get called in for defensive duty in emergencies; the real use of that extra defense point is to blunt enemy counterattacks when you're annexing your rightful territory. IMHO.

[wilbill]

Originally posted by Frimlin
When I play Rome, I just never upgrade to Med. Infantry. But I'm guessing the AI would, without the same hesitation as I -- which could indeed be an issue.

Well the AI may make that upgrade at times, but the AI tends not to upgrade its units very much at all.
@ Iska - A 3-3 isn't necessarily better or worse than a 4-2 unit. Depends on whether you want a defender or an attacker. When I play Rome (or any of the civs that have good ancient age defenders as UU's, like Greece or Carthage) I just keep them around until I'm ready for riflemen. If I want to wage medieval war as Rome, I build MI. It may not be the best upgrade path in the game, but I don't find it all that bad.

[Frimlin]

Originally posted by The Last Conformist
I actually prefer Medieval Infantry over Legionaries. *snip!*

I didn't know that about Legionaries and Pikemen -- thanks for the tip! Maybe next time I'll upgrade a few.

Yeah I know I could have calculated the odds using a tool, or something, but really -- as much as I have loads of time for Civ, I've never been a great one for numbers!

[Xen]

I agree, over all, IMO, the legionary is both the better unti statwise, being far more useful to out inot armies anyway, as well as lookign cooler IMO, and I for one took the libertyof getting rid of all upgrades to the legionry entirelly, though now that the Roman Fulminata unit is done (Fulminata, when translated from latin, means lightning, a good descriptive term for early gun powder) I know have that upgrade

as a side note, this wonderful unit is availible here, and i suggest everyone check it out http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...5&pagenumber=1

[Qarus]

The real problem is you have the option of building both at the same time. Half the time the computer switches the legionare your building into a MI when your not looking.

[Xen]

thats extremelly rare actully, I and if it was annoying, I'd just take away the MI optiom all together, and, replace it with one of the dark age Roman units that are great for scenarios that I had made by the unit creator utahjazz (I''m resposible for the concept work behind most fo the Roman units on these forums )

[Black Waltz]

Well the simple thing to do is... Don't upgrade the Legionaries.

[Xen]

thats a limted solution- the fact that you can no longer build Legionaries at all is what is really crappy about the whole thing

[DrJambo]

Isn't that the same as for the Gallic Swordsman? It certainly was in PTW. They also upgrade to medieval infantry. I think in this instance that is worse than the Roman Legionaire upgrading.

Losing the 2 moving points and the ability to retreat is far worse.

Needless to say, I think both are fine as they are, as those units would be too overpowered compared to other UUs.

[Olixas]

Yes, Gallic Sworman to IM, it’s a strange upgrade. And how about the nice Inmortals?

I think it’s worse if you play Cartago and upgrades you Lybian mercs (2/3/1) to pikemem (1/3/1).

But Roma have the worst way. They beggin with warriors and they don’t upgrade Legio. Then Legio…

It’s a hole in the game. Think about the way greeks upgrade. Hoplites > Musketman (no Pikemen).

Just we need mod.

[The Last Conformist]

Immortals don't upgrade to Medieval Infantry. Persia is unable to build Medieval Infantry.

Similarly, Greece and Carthage don't get to build Pikemen.

[akillias]

I use my defensive units to protect my offensive units

[Iztvan]

Well, Rome was great in ancient times, but got into serious trouble when feudalism kicked in. For once Civ and real history agrees! Great, imho!
Same goes for the Celts...

[Eyeoftiger]

Originally posted by Frimlin
But then, this is coming from the guy that thinks Cavalry should upgrade to Tanks.

You too?