Would the USSR have defeated Germany without US-UK invasion of france?

alejandro-magno · Mar 06, 2004, 07:57 PM

This is about a discussion started in the humor

forum. I think the USSR would whave defeated the Reich, even if it took some more time. And i´m not saying here which dictatorship was better, but just a probability analysis.

Knight-Dragon · Mar 06, 2004, 08:03 PM

Maybe, but it was Stalin who specifically requested the Western Allies to open a second front on the Atlantic coast to give the Soviets more breathing space.

Gladi · Mar 06, 2004, 08:07 PM

Bright day
From tales of my grandmother and history lessons- the Germans were already retreating when Allies landed- somewhere I read that they were even out of Russia by that time.
May all your days be bright.

privatehudson · Mar 06, 2004, 08:17 PM

By that stage, almost certainly, though it would have taken much longer and cost much more lives.

Archer 007 · Mar 06, 2004, 09:06 PM

Maybe. Glad that we dont have to think about it.

amadeus · Mar 06, 2004, 11:08 PM

Stalin could have done it. By 1944, the Soviets had enough joementum to defeat the Axis singlehandedly. It certainly would have taken longer, but he would have done it.

Plexus · Mar 06, 2004, 11:23 PM

Yes, but how crappy would it've been if the Warsaw Pact had extended itself to the English Channel?

nonconformist · Mar 07, 2004, 12:12 AM

Yes, it would almost definitely been possible.

Sims2789 · Mar 07, 2004, 12:31 AM

no, unless we would have put our troops in the USSR. it would be interesting to see what would have happened if the US didn't have to focus half her power on Japan during WWII.

Case · Mar 07, 2004, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gladi
I read that they were even out of Russia by that time.

No, the last Germans weren't chased out of the pre-1939 Soviet territory until about August 1944. The Germans retained a few footholds in the Baltic states untill the end of the war (the Courland pocket being the most notable of these).

Given that the Soviets were demolishing entire German Army Groups more or less at will from 1944 onwards, I can't see how the Germans could have possibly stoped them short of Berlin.

CaptainCommando · Mar 07, 2004, 03:05 AM

No way, if Japan had gone on unchecked by the U.S. and finished with China they could have attacked the Russians, it wouldn't have been the first time the Russians and Japanese went at it, either.

#1 Person · Mar 07, 2004, 06:43 AM

even though the russians had the re new t-34 tanks the germans wouldn't have to divert there forces,

tossi · Mar 07, 2004, 07:19 AM

Nazi-Germany would still fall.

Hitro · Mar 07, 2004, 08:58 AM

Yes, without any doubt.

General Brown · Mar 07, 2004, 09:14 AM

But the Germany had considerable forces in the West. Imagine that army plus the remainder of the East Army, against the Soviets. The casualty rate was 4 to1 and I believe that The Soviets would have been stopped before reaching the Oder.

privatehudson · Mar 07, 2004, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by General Brown
But the Germany had considerable forces in the West. Imagine that army plus the remainder of the East Army, against the Soviets. The casualty rate was 4 to1 and I believe that The Soviets would have been stopped before reaching the Oder.

That really depends on the nature of the question, for example, if the West still threatened invasion, troops of smoe signifigant level would need to remain. If it assumes the west were out of the war entirely, then the majority could have been shifted. Given the state of Germany at this stage though, she was the one more likely to run out of steam than Russia...

Darth_Pugwash · Mar 07, 2004, 11:50 AM

Their is no way Germany could have turned things around in 44. The USSR was giving Germany a hell of a kicking before June and their is no reason to assume that this would not continue if d-day never happened.

Marla_Singer · Mar 07, 2004, 11:58 AM

Of course Russia would have won all the way.

By the way, the UK/US didn't invade France, they've freed it. If they didn't come in Normandy, France, Germany and Italy would be Soviet Republics.

Sarevok · Mar 07, 2004, 12:17 PM

eventually they would have...

Serutan · Mar 07, 2004, 12:41 PM

Yes, *provided* that the Soviet Union continued to recieve
Lend-Lease at historic levels. The Red Army owed its mobility
to American trucks and jeeps. It would of course have taken longer...

View Poll Results: Would the USSR have defeated Germany without US-UK invasion of france
Yes	52	72.22%
NO	20	27.78%
Voters: 72. You may not vote on this poll

Mar 06, 2004, 08:03 PM	#2
Knight-Dragon Hidden Dragon Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Singapore Posts: 19,209	Maybe, but it was Stalin who specifically requested the Western Allies to open a second front on the Atlantic coast to give the Soviets more breathing space. __________________ Join The History Enthusiasts' Lodge, The Anime & Manga Appreciation Club and The World of Warcraft Players' Guild today!

Mar 06, 2004, 08:07 PM	#3
Gladi The ignored thread killer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: EU- Czechia, City of Hundred Spires Posts: 2,309	Bright day From tales of my grandmother and history lessons- the Germans were already retreating when Allies landed- somewhere I read that they were even out of Russia by that time. May all your days be bright. __________________ I know my posts are confused but they simply reflect state of my mind . For The Last Conformist : May all your days be bright (in a soul and mind) ! Senatus Populusque Europaeus

Mar 06, 2004, 08:17 PM	#4
privatehudson The Ultimate Badass Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 4,763	By that stage, almost certainly, though it would have taken much longer and cost much more lives. __________________ We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!

Mar 06, 2004, 11:08 PM	#6
amadeus ドリーミング Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Japan Posts: 32,278	Stalin could have done it. By 1944, the Soviets had enough joementum to defeat the Axis singlehandedly. It certainly would have taken longer, but he would have done it. __________________ ROTHBARD ROCKWELL BLOCK RON PAUL MISES

Mar 06, 2004, 07:57 PM	#1
alejandro-magno Revolutionary Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina Posts: 74	Would the USSR have defeated Germany without US-UK invasion of france? This is about a discussion started in the humor forum. I think the USSR would whave defeated the Reich, even if it took some more time. And i´m not saying here which dictatorship was better, but just a probability analysis.

Mar 06, 2004, 09:06 PM	#5
Archer 007 Rebirth Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Empire State of the South Posts: 10,687	Maybe. Glad that we dont have to think about it.

Mar 06, 2004, 11:23 PM	#7
Plexus Child-eating squid. Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: in: Bay., DE // fr: S. Calif., USA Posts: 7,005	Yes, but how crappy would it've been if the Warsaw Pact had extended itself to the English Channel? __________________ */plexus/*

Mar 07, 2004, 12:12 AM	#8
nonconformist Miserable Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Canterbury Posts: 18,754	Yes, it would almost definitely been possible. __________________ In Love with a Reverse Mermaid I ate the bacon already. I could smell it in your purse before I even parked my car. And now it’s gone and I hate everything. Allez Les Bleus! World Cup 2011

Mar 07, 2004, 12:31 AM	#9
Sims2789 Fool me once... Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: California Posts: 7,874	no, unless we would have put our troops in the USSR. it would be interesting to see what would have happened if the US didn't have to focus half her power on Japan during WWII. __________________ "[In Arkansas], it costs more money to put a person in prison for one year than it would to put them in college – public or private school – pay tuition, room, and board and buy their books." - Mike Huckabee "[The French] have built more prisons than schools." - Vietnamese Declaration of Independence

Mar 07, 2004, 03:05 AM	#11
CaptainCommando Warlord Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: California Posts: 167	No way, if Japan had gone on unchecked by the U.S. and finished with China they could have attacked the Russians, it wouldn't have been the first time the Russians and Japanese went at it, either.

Mar 07, 2004, 06:43 AM	#12
#1 Person The Cow Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: In a grassy knoll with internet Posts: 1,954	even though the russians had the re new t-34 tanks the germans wouldn't have to divert there forces,

Mar 07, 2004, 07:19 AM	#13
tossi Der kleine Prinz Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Deutschland/Norge Posts: 2,636	Nazi-Germany would still fall. __________________ -Voici mon secret. Il est très simple: on ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux.

Mar 07, 2004, 08:58 AM	#14
Hitro Feistus Raclettus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: North German Plain Posts: 12,340	Yes, without any doubt.

Mar 07, 2004, 09:14 AM	#15
General Brown Go Boston Sports! Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Boston MA Posts: 186	But the Germany had considerable forces in the West. Imagine that army plus the remainder of the East Army, against the Soviets. The casualty rate was 4 to1 and I believe that The Soviets would have been stopped before reaching the Oder.

Mar 07, 2004, 11:50 AM	#17
Darth_Pugwash wobble wobble Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 2,876	Their is no way Germany could have turned things around in 44. The USSR was giving Germany a hell of a kicking before June and their is no reason to assume that this would not continue if d-day never happened. __________________ Made ya look.

Mar 07, 2004, 11:58 AM	#18
Marla_Singer United in diversity Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Paris, west side (92). Posts: 12,076	Of course Russia would have won all the way. By the way, the UK/US didn't invade France, they've freed it. If they didn't come in Normandy, France, Germany and Italy would be Soviet Republics. __________________ "A war among Europeans is a civil war", Victor Hugo (1802-1885).

Mar 07, 2004, 12:17 PM	#19
Sarevok Civ3 Scenario Creator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Vancouver, WA Posts: 8,408	eventually they would have... __________________ Scenario's: Barbarossa 1.2 C3C, The Great War C3C, The Old Empires C3C and PTW, The Three Kingdoms C3C, Red Europe PTW, Blue Europe PTW, Red Europe Aftermath PTW, LOTR: Return of the King PTW, LOTR: The Two Towers PTW - Rei

Mar 07, 2004, 12:41 PM	#20
Serutan Eatibus Anythingibus Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Baja Arizona Posts: 4,065	Yes, provided that the Soviet Union continued to recieve Lend-Lease at historic levels. The Red Army owed its mobility to American trucks and jeeps. It would of course have taken longer... __________________ I think Man is the most interesting form of insect life on Earth. Don't you? -- M.T. Martian

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