SirPleb, Going for Sid

Originally posted by EMan
Notwithstanding cries of "Sacrilege", I shall propose to Firaxis that the Game Level ABOVE Sid in Civ 4 be named "SirPleb"!

it exists... called "beyond sid" and was successfully won by bamspeedy. another one of the games that go into history.

i really wished aeson, bamspeedy, sirpleb and other gods of civilization would play exactly the same games, once for fastest win, once milking, once whateverelse ;)
 
Thanks everyone! I greatly appreciate and enjoy the feedback on this thread!

Originally posted by Offa
How long did this take?
I was a bit (not a lot) shocked to be told by the game that the play time was 432 hours. Not all of that was actual play time of course. I often left the game running when I had short interruptions and expected to get back to it soon. But if I include pre-game planning and my abandoned starts then this might be less than the actual total, hard to say. So let's just say "embarassingly long".
Originally posted by Offa
Are you coming back to GOTM now?
Yup. Probably soon but that depends whether a pending real-life assignment comes through or not - if it does I might have to skip one more month. I'd sure like to get back into it though, I've heard rumours of a great prize which no one has seen ;)
Originally posted by fret
Thats the first time 60K has been beaten on the new Huge Map size isnt it?
As far as I know... If anyone knows of another please do jump in here! I.e. another one since the time when huge maps were reduced to 140x140 vs. their original Civ3 size of 160x160.

I have a feeling this game won't be alone for long, that other games will soon be blasting past this score.
Originally posted by fret
Why did you stay in Monarchy after military operations had ceased? It looks like you could have had almost 200 turns of democracy, would changing to democracy not have speeded up the rush build phase a little?
I'm not sure whether Democracy would have resulted in a net gain in rush building. Assuming the worst case anarchy time of nine turns, that's a lot of lost production and income to make up for. And it would have to be made back in about 60 turns - after that all rushing would be complete. I certainly don't think the net gain over 60 turns (if any) would be very large.

Against any gain in rushing builds, some score would be lost during anarchy due to starvation. I guess most of that could be avoided by leaving most cities in disorder for all of the anarchy time except one turn. Still, messy.

And then there are MPs. I didn't have many, but I did have a few cities where I could not get all citizens happy, and due to local geography, could not solve the problem by swapping tiles to neighboring cities. Monarchy allowed me to gain 3 happy faces in such cities by stationing MPs there. And that completely fixed all but one such city.

Adding those things up, I didn't see any prize in switching at the late date. It seemed at least as good to stay in Monarchy.
Originally posted by sabrewolf
sirpleb, are you ever going to try and beat your score or was it just too time consuming? how many hours did you actually invest (excluding all the time in bed thinking and calculating what strategy would be best ;)). if you try, you should get it going before the next patch as it's possible that some AI weaknesses (no army, no attacking army in the field, etc) will get fixed and your life would have been a whole lot harder!
I don't know about trying to beat this one. Not right away. But the urge may strike at some time, who knows? I'll be more likely to try again after another patch than before actually! It certainly would be easiest to take another run and get a higher score by playing now and using the current loopholes. But I think I'd have more fun if these loopholes were fixed and I had to try again without them ;)

If I could choose what went into a patch I'd include plugging a few loopholes and at the same time reduce Sid difficulty a bit. Reduce it to roughly halfway between Deity and the current Sid. Because if enough loopholes get plugged, I think Sid as it currently stands will become too difficult to win on anything but the luckiest of starts.
 
SirPleb, I'm not sure if your score is more an accomplishment so much as it is a target, but I salute you nonetheless. Despite my rare posting in this thread, rest assured I've read every word...
 
originally posted by SirPleb
If I could choose what went into a patch I'd include plugging a few loopholes and at the same time reduce Sid difficulty a bit.

I assume the loopholes you are referring too are:
1) AI not attacking armies in open (thereby allowing FODo and FODe)
2) Ability to rush armies
3) AI not building armies

Are there any others?

originally posted by sabrewolf
I really wished aeson, bamspeedy, sirpleb and other gods of civilization would play exactly the same games, once for fastest win, once milking, once whateverelse

What I think would be awesome would be a PBEM game among the legends (with saves posted so us mortals could watch/play along). It would be very entertaining for me to watch SirPleb et al. try to outmaneuver a human rather than the AI they're used to.

Just dreaming i guess. . .

Travis
 
Originally posted by travis555
I assume the loopholes you are referring too are:
1) AI not attacking armies in open (thereby allowing FODo and FODe)
2) Ability to rush armies
3) AI not building armies

Are there any others?
Others that I used this game weren't as overwhelming as the army related ones but there are some which seem to me to be so overpowered that they should count as loopholes:
4) Great Library shouldn't give techs which have Education as a prerequisite
5) AIs should go for Literature sooner
6) Agricultural trait needs to be weakened

And some which I didn't use but I think are exploitable:
7) Communism shouldn't be so strong
8) Lethal bombers

There may be one or two more which haven't been explored enough yet but could be exploitable when we understand them. One which feels that way to me is the AI overbuilding military units to the point where they can't afford anything. There may be a way to turn that to the human's advantage.
 
I am glad to read someone else feels lethal bombardment by planes is too strong.
 
Congrats!!!:goodjob:

Now that you've entered the debriefing phase I have a question.

Did you keep a QSC timeline on this game. I have downloaded your GOTM17 QSC and have learned alot from it. I'm still playing on emporer, but I'm getting ready to move up one level soon, thanks to you sharing your thoughts.

Thanks again and keep up the great work.
 
Originally posted by SirPleb
I have a 2050AD Histographic win with a score of 64,296.

I think that's finally a new high - Aeson may have to start playing a HOF game again ;) I don't expect it will remain unbeaten for long. Nonetheless I'm quite happy with the game and with the score.

Congratulations! Although I've heard my score was 68k done from an all tundra island start... probably OCC.

I also must inform you of a little known rule* that the player with the highest scoring game becomes the new HOF moderator. Enjoy! ;)

*I just made that one up, will post it in the thread soon.
 
Originally posted by Aeson
I also must inform you of a little known rule* that the player with the highest scoring game becomes the new HOF moderator. Enjoy!
:lol: :rotfl: :lol: :rotfl: :lol:
:lol: :rotfl: :lol: :rotfl: :lol:
That's good to know. No matter how slim the odds are of it ever happening this means I have a chance to eventually ban Darkness and EMan!
 
Originally posted by DJMGator13
Did you keep a QSC timeline on this game.
I'm sorry DJMGator13, I didn't keep notes as detailed as a QSC log. I wanted to but after the first couple of starts I stopped doing it. I didn't know which game I'd eventually decide to play all the way and it started seeming pointless to keep detailed notes each time only to abandon the game and start a new one.

I do however have saves from most dates. If anyone wants a particular one I'll post it. I didn't know which dates would end up being of interest for a writeup and screenshots later on, and didn't want to stop to think about it during each game which might or might not be discarded. So I just saved every turn to make it possible to choose later. (Nearly every turn, I sometimes forgot.)
 
Originally posted by Aeson
Congratulations! Although I've heard my score was 68k done from an all tundra island start... probably OCC.

I also must inform you of a little known rule* that the player with the highest scoring game becomes the new HOF moderator. Enjoy! ;)
I'm sure I kept a copy of your 68k game, perhaps I can dig it out and submit it on your behalf? As I recall it, as well as tundra-OCC you also played either no military units or always war in that game, it must be around here somewhere in one of those two folders...
 
Originally posted by SirPleb
I was a bit (not a lot) shocked to be told by the game that the play time was 432 hours.

:eek: :eek: :eek: 432 hours! :eek:

I love Civ but you can rest assured I won't be committing 400+ hours to go for the top spot. Nice job!

I like the Funnels of Doom and Deception. Maybe I'll play an archipelago on a smaller map and see if I can put it to use there. I can't see how I could get the AI's to build up their armies on a different type of map.
 
Great game and great write-up, SirPleb. It's fascinating how pushing phenemonal players to the extremes leads to exciting new strategies/exploits like Funnel of Doom. Excellently played and wonderfully reported.

Good luck in future endeavors!
Arathorn
 
Originally posted by SirPleb
I do however have saves from most dates. If anyone wants a particular one I'll post it.

I would be interested in seeing the save from when you built your 2nd city and also from around your 5th city. Just trying to get an idea on your mm techiques and early build priorities.

Thanks
 
I remember there was some game in which Aeson got a ridiculously high score but I believe the map size was larger. There was also a game (perhaps the same one) in which he sold all his cities away.
 
Back when the Huge map size was 170x170 (Civ 1.16f?) I scored 635XX with the Iroquois*. Now the Huge mapsize is 160x160, so there's a pretty big difference in Domination Limit (47XX in my game IIRC). The 50K+ Ottoman Deity games are a better comparison to that game.

*Looks like even with both new traits they are as strong as ever.
 
Here's my first set of scattered post game thoughts.

Re-reading my early posts

I've reread my initial posts on this thread and some of it is amusing. My favorite is my naive initial hope that I'd make a dent in one rival with about 50 Mounted Warriors. Yeah, right :lol:

Early Sid AI expansion

I had the most rapid initial expansion I've ever had, building four towns by 2630BC, 28 turns into the game. I did that by being agricultural, having lots of cattle, and not building any military units at the start. So how does that compare to a Sid AI's start? Here's the map at 2630BC from the replay window:



On watching the replay further there seems to be a strong relationship between available land and eventual AI strength. Here's the replay map at 1000BC:



In the above map you can see that Egypt (yellow) has long since run out of expansion room (she'd nearly filled her island in the previous map at 2630BC) and is the smallest AI at this point. She ends up being the weakest AI. Zululand (dark gray) is already at war with America (blue) and will win the fights near their common border. They subsequently expand to the unclaimed areas to their east and their north and will become the strongest AI. The Inca (red) haven't quite finished expanding to fill their island and will become the second strongest AI. All of the other AIs have recently reached their limit of easy expansion and will end up being the mid-strength AIs.

Monarchy vs. Republic

I've compared these two governments by starting a revolt at a particular date, playing with minimal actions through anarchy, saving the last turn in anarchy, then playing the next turn switching to each government and comparing the result.

Comparison at 310AD. This is shortly after the end of the Golden Age and about mid-way through the war with Mongols. I had one owned luxury at that date and 3 imported ones. War weariness was at stage one with one rival, i.e. would become worse later on.
In Monarchy I used a 10% luxury rate and 5 entertainers. 118 free units were allowed and I was paying 69gpt for additional units. Net income with those settings (and no research) was 162gpt.
Republic needed a 40% luxury rate and 5 entertainers. 73 free units were allowed. After disbanding 25 older units I was paying 178gpt for additional units. Net income with those settings was 93gpt, 69gpt less than Monarchy.

Comparison at 1080AD This is part way through my war with the Zulu. I had four owned luxuries and one imported. I made peace with Zulu and America before running this comparison, to make the anarchy easy to play through. Then compared Republic afterward in peace and at war again with Zulu. I didn't count entertainers in these, just made the trade-off I'd use if playing that situation. I.e. more entertainers in the Republic war case to avoid using an insane luxury rate.
Monarchy: 0% luxury, 26gpt unit support, net income 447gpt.
Republic at peace: 10% luxury, 316gpt unit support, net income 486gpt.
Republic at war: 40% luxury, 316gpt unit support, net income 134gpt, 313gpt less than Monarchy.

It seems that Monarchy was definitely the way to go for this game. The massive unit count I was supporting would've hurt Republic during most of the game.

Communism

I wanted to do a detailed comparison of Communism vs. Monarchy at a couple of stages in the game. But I've hit a problem with that. Doing a good comparison would require playing a fair bit with a different approach. All cities should get Courthouses, and perhaps even Police Stations. And an SPHQ should be built. At the point when I learned Communism, I didn't have two techs which would be required to build SPHQ. And I didn't learn them until late in the game when a comparison is of less interest. (Less because my city count had grown very high, probably higher than I'd have done if in Communism. And the result doesn't matter as much after the tough wars.)

If I'd gone for Communism, the best thing might have been to wait a bit longer to retake the Great Library, until I saw two opponents building Universal Suffrage. Or I could take it at the same date but the play immediately following that would be different. I could begin the switch to Communism in 820AD. After anarchy, I'd immediately start full speed research toward Espionage for a SPHQ. And I'd build Courthouses everywhere and perhaps Police Stations. More Barracks of course. Instead of using funds to purchase armies as I did in Monarchy, I'd build more Cavalry (using the higher total production), and use the higher numbers of them to produce more leaders, and get my armies that way. In the meantime I'd use money first to research to Espionage, then to steal more techs. I can't be sure how things would subsequently play out but I think I'd end up being able to reach the Inca sooner even though I'd have attacked the Zulu later.

Anyway, the comparison I'd love to have would be along that sequence at the point of having Courthouses everywhere and just having built SPHQ. It would take rather a lot of play time to make that comparison!

What I have done is used my 1000AD revolt sequence (used to compare to Republic at that date) to also do a basic comparison of Communism.

Monarchy: 26gpt unit support, net income 447gpt, 521 shields.
Communism: zero unit support, net income 549gpt, 672 shields.

Net income is not much improved in Communism. But the increase in production is nice, about 30%. The number of cities I had at that date was still not very high - over time production would definitely still be rising as the empire grew in Communism. And there'd be a big increase in income and production once Courthouses and SPHQ were built. I don't have a good feel for just how big those increases would be. It does seem clear that Communism would've been very strong.

Placement of the FP in Conquests

I wanted to get a better feel for the difference, in practice, between Forbidden Palace locations closer to vs. farther from the Palace. The results from this test are not absolute in any sense. They're specific to this particular map's geography, and to what improvements I've built in various cities. Still, I think it is useful information.

To test this I started from a save I had at 580AD which had an unused leader. I made peace with everyone, put all cities under governor control, and moved the leader to the home region. I abandoned my original FP, then at 650AD rushed an FP in various cities, played each case forward to 660AD, and noted the results. The following image shows the cities I tried. The Palace is circled in green, the five cities I rushed FP in are circled in red:



At this time I had courthouses in most of my southern cities, including the ones near Arabia (orange.) The newer cities toward Arabia were generally smaller (typically size 5) than the cities in the core region. I think that the five locations I tried for the FP are representative of locations I might actually have used, progressively more distant from the Palace, ranging from distance 4 to 19. In the game I used the second of those locations, Oka, at a distance of 8 from the Palace.

The results were surprising to me.
With no FP, my gross income was 768gpt and corruption was 293gpt, for a net income of 475gpt (before maintenance, unit support, etc. - this is the net gold which can be used for all of those purposes.) Net production was 286spt.
I built an FP at each of the five locations and measured increased commerce as a percentage increase in net income (gross - corruption), and measured increased net production as a percentage. Results, with the FP locations numbered from 1 to 5 in increasing distance from the Palace:
Code:
 FPcity    +gpt    +gpt%   +shields  +shields%
    1       35      7.4%      34       11.9%
    2       35      7.4%      34       11.9%
    3       42      8.8%      33       11.5%
    4       50     10.5%      32       11.2%
    5       43      9.1%      34       11.9%
I don't understand the odd discrepancies between gold and shields increase, and why shield increases are larger and more uniform. Marketplaces are probably a factor, and the strengths of various towns in terms of income vs. shields are also probably a factor. I think there must be at least one more factor.

At any rate, two overall conclusions seem possible:
1) The Forbidden Palace isn't providing a huge boost. (It is a lot less than I expected.)
2) The exact placement of the Forbidden Palace is not very important. Building it sooner probably helps one's game more than building it in a better location.

Safe Beachhead Towns

Will the AI attack armies which are blocking access to a town if that is the only way to reach the town? The answer is no.

To test this I went back to my 1525AD save, the time when I first had this thought. Instead of forming my first Funnel of Doom, I moved one Cavalry Army so that the Inca could not reach my beachhead town at all by land, then ended the turn. As I expected, the Inca didn't make any effort to attack the armies surrounding the town.

So it seems that beachheads can indeed be established simply by landing a settler and a few armies, then founding a town and deploying the armies to block all land access to the town. The AI won't attack.

In this game a better approach to getting a high score would probably have been to claim a luxury in this fashion as early as was possible from each of Inca, Aztecs, and China.

How much does the AI fear Armies?

I'm still poking around this and a couple of other issues. A bit of preliminary information on this subject:

It seems that armies are not what the AI is afraid of. It looks like there's a formula used to decide whether the AI will attack a unit in the open which is based on attacker strength, defender strength (including terrain bonuses), attacker HPs, and defender HPs. And this formula seems to result in defender HPs having a greater effect as they get higher.

When a defender's HPs are relatively high (e.g. a 10HP army vs. a 4HP attacker), the attack strength must be high relative to the defense strength before the AI will attack. One consequence of this is what we've seen in the AI's reluctance to attack armies. I suspect there are more consequences including some which may affect modded games (higher HPs) in unexpected ways.

More to come on this...
 
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