English Should Be The Best Of All The Nations

[MrPresident]

Is it me or didn't the English eventually win the race to colonize America? Shouldn't this have been put into the game because the way I see it the Dutch are by far the best nation. The English should get some sort of bonus for their navy because as everyone knows they ruled the seas. I was thinking of maybe either a bonus of 50% (before Drake) for English privateers. Also the French should get a bonus for their fur trappers because they based the whole of the Canadian economy of fur. The Spanish should get a bonus of cheap transport of gold back to Spain to reflect the huge amounts of gold that went from South America to Spain. For the Dutch I can't think of any specific bonuses they should get because they did so little (apart from obviously founding New Amsterdam). Maybe they should start with Peter Minuit and his bonus?

[CoolLizy]

If anyone, the Spanish should be the best, but in truth there is no best. Most people say it's the Dutch, but I actually perfer the English to them. There is no best.
And the Dutch had more in the New World the New Amstradam. I think all the bonuses reflected history very well.

[MrPresident]

Spanish? Do you even have a small gasp of American colonial history. All the Spanish did was conquer poorly defended, poorly organisated, suspectiable to the white man's disease. If that wasn't enough the Aztecs thought Courtes was a God returning to earth, no wonder they didn't attack him until it was too late. The Spanish didn't build up their colonies they were just interested in the gold/silver (who can blame them).

As for your comment that the bonuses reflect history well, then why do most people consider the Dutch a good nation to be? In real life they were the worst nation (apart from the Swedish). They had only 3 colonies and of those only New Amsterdam was worth anything (and that was easily conquered by the English). I admit they were a trading nation but they were <B> not </B> a colonizing nation and that should be reflected in the game.

[bvd]

The Dutch start with a Merchantman unit, the only incentive I need. Since you argue that of every Dutch settlement, only New Amsterdam "was worth anything", I'll explain why it's the only one I need to found:

The fastest option at any difficulty level is resorting to only one colony. There must be immediate prime timber (I deforest every nearby square but one), sufficient food (usually two squares of ocean and another of plains or savanna) and two raw commodities for direct application (my favorites are sugar and tobacco); the natives will bestow master planters.

I ignore silver, since my investement is a protracted one and prices must recover quickly. I don't even bother procuring it, nor trade goods, through the natives. Ore, however, is preferable, but not necessary; though the bid price in Europe climbs exponentially, I cannot seem to extract enough from one colony to meet a blacksmith's quota, let alone a gunsmith's (the strain on food isn't worth it.)

A handful of enhanced privateers (combat strength: fourteen) constructed at a shipyard will destroy the other colonies' infrastructure and enable you to gain independence first, granted you have at least two elder statesmen and a proper defense. With a fortress, fifteen artillery, twenty untrained dragoons and three frigates may suffice.

The answer to your extraneous poll question depends on the strategy used, though my favorite founding fathers are Pocahontas, Thomas Jefferson, Simon Bolivar and John Paul Jones. William Brewster is good if you are looking for the Fountain of Youth, are in constant need a readily available worker or want to outfit lots of dragoons.

[Achinz]

I'll take issue with MrPresident re the Dutch. Although purely from the American perspective, they have not been significant, it is diffierent on a global basis. The Dutch were supreme in the Far East with their trading port in Malacca and of course the great spice empire based in the Dutch East Indies (now basically Indonesia).

Although the original game was based on the American experience, I think it should be flexible enough to be played in different continents. I have found it refreshing to play on the other maps downloadable from dledgard's site, http://www.dledgard.freeserve.co.uk/col.htm , as exploration and discovery are one of the main addictive elements in the game from my point of view.

bvd:
I've been thinking along the same lines regarding an OCC - one colony challenge (similar to the well-established One City Challenge in Civ2). Like its Civ2 analogue, the resources of the colony are crucial - on first principles I would put the priority on the strategic resouces of lumber and ore. Would you allow the founding of temporary feeder "unacolonies" (size one colonies)?

Only slightly on a tangent, what about a trial comparison game based on a suitable starting colony with the ideal resource squares? I have found it both instructive and addictive to take part in the Civ2 OCC comparison games in the Apolyton Civ2 forums some time ago. Perhaps I should start a new thread on this.

[CoolLizy]

Yes, but even so the Spanish remained dominint for a long period of time and they influenced many a modern-day country. Besides, what fun would it be if the game was totally focused on just the English?
Fun vs. Realism = Fun should win.

[Achinz]

Historically you are quite right about the Spanish influence but in the game I just abhore their "kill the Indians" priority. For someone like me who likes to trade profitably with, get specialists and gold gifts from the Indians, the Spanish are my public enemy number one!

[bvd]

Well, I found a viable deposit in the Viceroy-level game I've been playing. As soon as I can build a Custom House, I will (finally) declare independence. I've been recruiting free colonists from the fatherland to outfit and mount.

Incidentally, in my game, the Spaniards have been recalled and the English have been neutralized (they've lost their navy) while the French have spread to every continent. I haven't attacked one native unit, albeit there is an alarmed Apache encampment two tiles away from New Amsterdam. They've given me my master planters, a master ore miner and over 2000 gold doubloons.

Here is a screenshot attachment:

[Achinz]

Looks pretty impressive.

Some questions:

I note you haven't got a custom house yet?

How many cannons and veteran dragoons have you got - the units pic is always compressed to a blur with more than say 8 units in the colony.

If this is a custom New World map, what were your customization choices?

[bvd]

I finally attained independence in Autumn, 1656; a full game of Colonization completed in one day! Regarding the screenshot questions:

Alas, I was unable to acquire Peter Stuyvesant as "trade advisor" until very late. At the time of the screenshot, I was "researching" him.

By the time the War of Independence was reckoned with, I had 14 artillery pieces (two of which were damaged), 10 militia regulars, 5 Continental dragoons, 5 Continental regulars, 4 veteran dragoons and two militia dragoons. Most of my naval units were ravished (though I had damaged/sunk dozens of foreign/tory ships), and I was left with a frigate, a merchantman and a privateer. I don't know the figures at the time of the screenshot. I, too, wish that they had a better way of viewing garrisons/activating units.

I was playing on a random map with no specifications. Of course, you can see for yourself :

[Achinz]

Game file downloaded - will be interested in the immediate environment aound you colony.

What voluntary rules did you apply in the game eg

Are rival colonies disbanded immediately after capture?

I take it you did not allow the founding of temporary size one feeder colonies.

I'm also attempting a first OCC game at Viceroy level playing as the Dutch - looks like our preferences are similar. Random map (land mass large, other variables normal).

BTW would I be correct in assuming from first bmp that you are playing on the Windows version. I've only got the DOS one but it works OK although the screen is harder to capture

[bvd]

Actually, I am using the DOS version though I have seen its Windows counterpart; improved unit graphics, digitized sound, etc. - nothing very significant. I purchased the game legally for the Amiga along with Pirates!, but when I found the PC versions I couldn't resist "downloading" them.

Throughout the game, I was never at peace; every single power endeavored to land dragoons on the peninsula to the south. I was forced to destroy two colonies: Roanoke (English - in reality it vanished!) and Santo Domingo (Spanish). From them I captured an unmounted seasoned scout and an indentured servant, which I trained as an ore miner. Those were the only reachable colonies I could find without a stockade (excluding Barbados), though I drained others of their garrisons.

Needless to say, the English were so kind as to "give" their horses to the Arawaks and, to a lesser extent, the Apache. There were fleeting reports that natives were wreaking havoc in Jamestown.

The real advantage to war, however, was shipping; I expropriated at least 500 tools/muskets from hapless caravels.

No colonies were founded except New Amsterdam, though it really wasn't until it received its "100%" bonus that it became completely self-reliant.

I completed in the late 1650s; I'm sure you'll do better.

[Achinz]

Interesting! There seems to be two extreses in the game:

1. As in your case where you are close to rival colonies who are somehow more advanced in development than you are and you have to spend much time and resources on defence and forced to attack (which is the best defence), or

2. In my present OCC game where I'm lucky enough to contact the French with my earliest scout exploration and capture their 2 undefended colonies, yielding a few colonists including their special Hardy Pioneer. The English and the Spanish are far to my north and were not a bother at all. My closest Indian Iroquois neighbour was a sensible four squares away and was a useful source of gold through profitable trade.

My game is now at 1596 and with de Soto and Cortes in Congress, I'm starting to "pop" the rumors but alas, the darn King has now upped the tax to a steep 23% so with every treasure I turn up, he gets his share and his REF expands! It is an interesting exercise with one colony to make decisions on priorities ie when to turn attention from churning out rum to stockpiling the strategic materials and military units to hasten the date of Revolution.

Were you able with the bells from one colony to generate enough to get the other European power to intervene?

[bvd]

It seems that an enemy can forestall an attack on their larger colonies until the very moment they complete their stockades. It’s really irritating, though in my newer game I’ve been able to extract two free colonists, a master farmer and, more importantly, an elder statesman from the Spaniards, who are (or, were) situated on a nearby continent. In the meantime I’m placating the distant coastal Incas and procuring large amounts of silver via galleon from them; the commodity’s price has dropped to $0. I’m nearing the treasury limit and am poised to purchase a few artillery pieces, since revolution can’t be more than 100 turns away and I already have Jefferson, Stuyvesant and Paine…

How many fountains of youth have you unearthed? The accompanying music with a discovery is actually pretty nice...

In an “OCC” game, it does seem possible to generate 10,000 liberty bells before the War for Independence ends, granted you have perhaps three elder statesman, Jefferson, Bolivar and Paine. I wish that a man-of-war could be obtained some other way besides foreign interference…

[Achinz]

To answer your question, to date autumn 1606 (I'm a bit slow due to distractions ), I've got 4 Fountains of Youth - the number of colonists is getting embarassingly large
Did you manage to get many veteran soldiers from the Fountains? I only managed one despite the fact that William Brewster was the first FF I got.

If you happen to have saved the start of your new game - I'd be interested to have a "comparison" game on it. Also, if you are interested I think I've got the start of my present game and can upload it.