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Old Jul 19, 2004, 01:30 PM   #1
Khan Quest
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Civilization Characteristic Specific Techs (CCST)

I sugested this in the original thread back in December (#303) and would like to bring it up again for discussion.

---------------------------------

Civilization Characteristic Specific Techs (CCST)

CCSTs would be automatically granted to a civ whose characteristics match those of the tech. CCSTs are always dead-end techs. They may researched by other civs at somewhat of a high cost. The AI could trade them, would regard the CCSTs of there own characteristic as very valuble (for selling only). There would be one or two per age.

As an example an Industrious civ after researching Industrialization would automatically get the Assembly-line tech.

Some CCSTs may apply to two characteristics.

Here are some ideas:

Industrious
Apprenticeship...city produces +1 shield
Assembly-line...Factories shield output increases 10%
Work Ethic...?
Self-sufficiency...?
Tooling...?

Expansionist
Outfitting...?
Expeditionism...Settlers move 2
Prospecting...% to reveal strategic resource early (though not be usable)

Militaristic
Drills...?
Warrior Philosophy...Settlers have defense of 1.
Athletic & Skill Contests (Olympics)...?
War Games...% chance unit is fortified after final attack or move

Commercial
Speculation...?
Credit...Earn some intrest earlier in the game
Insurance...?
Advertising...?
Accounting...?

Agricultural
Terracing ...See below
Preservation...(salting/smoking/canning) starvation slower
Refridgeration...?
?...Build on a swamp
?...Ship food granary to granary

Scientific
Dewey decimal...Increase libraries research
Universal Education...Increase Universities research
Weights & measures...?
Metric system...?
Geology...Same as prospecting

Religious
Pilgrimage...?
Centralized...Religion Less rivalry between provinces (if adopted)
Fanaticism...?

Sea Faring
Seamanship (cross training)...?
Damage Control...A ship fortified anywhere repairs. Repaired one turn in any city.
? All transports can carry a extra worker, beyond the slot limit (e.g. galleys can carry 2vunits + 1 worker)

---

Here's the terracing idea from post #122

Terracing, agricultural, (middle ages somewhere), dead-end tech – hills and mountains can be terraced to produce one extra food.
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Old Jul 19, 2004, 02:55 PM   #2
superpelon
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I Like This Idea

I like it. Im gonna expand on this.

Each civ gets two trait-specific techs each age. They each add an ability for the civ, similar to the bounses added by the civ-trait. The techs add a city improvment/small wonder (one or the other, depends on what the building is). The other adds a unit... So, its 2 per age, each adds an ability and 1 building/small wonder and 1 unit.

The techs are to be placed along the "non-vital" advances for age advancment (like Free Artistry and Advanced Flight), their science cost should be average for the age. These techs can be traded, but only with civs that share your trait.

So, each civ ends up with 4 extra advances per age, with 8 extra units and 8 extra buildings... diffrent from other civs... and a bit more diverse...


INDUSTRIOUS
Ancient:
Apprenticeship: city square produces +1 shield.
Building/Small Wonder: Blacksmith shop, mountains produce +1 shield
Metal Tools: iron and gold resource squares +1 commerce
Unit: Armed Worker, 0.1.1 ADM

Middle Ages:
Serfs: Captured workers work at 3/4 normal rate
Early Industries: Bouns resources produce +1 gold/shield/trade (depends on resource)
Building/Small Wonder: Mill, +10% shields, no pollution.

Industrial:
Assembly-line: Factories shield output increases 10%
Building/Small Wonder: Workers Homes: 2 civil eng produce +2 shield and no pollution
Work Ethic: captured workers become yours after 2 jobs

Modern:
Self-sufficiency: strat resources not needed for buildings
Tooling: Cost of Manuf Plant less, +5% production
Unit: Combat Engineer: 4.8.2 ADM, builds roads, railroads, fortresses, fortifications, airfields and radar




MILITARISTIC
Ancient:
Drills: All units from goody huts are regular
Unit: Armed Settler 0.1.1 ADM
Warrior Philosophy: First unit built in any city is veteran

Middle Ages:
Athletic & Skill Contests: 10% chance of building an elite unit
Siege Warfare: 150% effect of city walls
Unit: Siege Tower 6.1.2 BRF, lethal bombard, wheeled, more expensive than Trebuchet

Industrial:
War Games: conscripts become regulars after 5 turns, regulars to vets, 10 turns
Building/Small Wonder: Army Base, draftees are regulars, produces 1 reg infantry unit every 10 turns
Field Fortifications: 25% chance unit is fortified after final attack or move

Modern:
C&C: Increased LoS in all units.
Special Operations: Spy become veteran, cost of missions decreases
Building/Small Wonder: SpecOps HQ: Allows building of SpecFor units
Unit: Special Forces: Amphib, Para, Stealth, Invisible, Hidden Nat, detector (?)unit 10.6.3 ADM



RELIGIOUS
Ancient:
Mythology: temples upkeep decreases
Religious Holidays: WLTKD in one of your cities, in next turn it moves to another city, next turn to a third city...

Medieval:
Religious Persecution: Reduced War Wariness
Pilgrimage: All Religious Wonders create +5 trade
Unit: Missionary 2.1.2, all terrain as roads, worker enslave, detector.
Small Wonder: Reformation, makes one person content in all cities

Industrial:
Missions: random free spy in 1/2 of civs in game
Building/Small Wonder: Mission: reduces corruption and +1 culture
Centralized Religion: +1 trade from all squares in 3 biggest cites

Modern:
Fanaticism: ZERO war wariness for 5 turns after declaring war
Unit: Zealot: 8.8.2 ADM +1 HP, very cheap, costs one population point, invisible, stealth attack
Mass Media Religion: +1 happy face in all cities with +12 population




SEAFARING
Ancient:
Oar Banks: Add +1 attack and movement to galleys
Unit: Trireme: EXPENSIVE 2.2.2 ADM +1HP
Boarding Parties: ships enslave ability

Middle Ages:
Fishing Nets: coast tiles within 1 square of city produce +1 food
???

Industrial:
Merchant Marine: Troop Transports cheaper, city on coast produces +2 commerce
Unit: Liner: 1.1.8 carry 8, more expensive than Transport
Sea Bombard: Ships have lethal bombard on ground units
Building/Small Wonder: Naval Academy: produces 1 ship-of-the-line/ ironclad/ destroyer each 8 turns

Modern:
Seaborne Resupply: Ships can heal at sea.
Unit: Hovercraft: 1.1.10 ADM Invisible. Carry 2
Sea Salvage Tech: All ensalved ships are regular.
Building/Small Wonder: Oil Rig, all ocean squares produce +1 shield




AGRICULTURAL
Ancient:
Terracing: Build Terraces on hills
Hunting skills: Game, Ivory, Horses and Fur squares produce +1 food
Building/Small Wonder:

Middle Ages:
Farming: 1 turn Irrigation
Wells: Irrigation everywhere
Building/Small Wonder:
Unit: Citizen Settler: same as settler, costs one pop point, creates size 2 city.

Industrial:
Food Shipments: Ship food granary to granary
Preservation: Food in granary is doubled when there is food shortage


Modern:
Mass Farming: Wheat tiles produce +2 food, irrigated grassland and plains +1
Cold/Wet Weather Farming: Tundra, Swamp and Jungle produce +1 food.

NEED HELP HERE!! AGRICULTURAL IS HARD!! help help help!!




SCIENTIFIC:
Ancient:
Weights & measures: City Improvments (not wonders) are 10% cheaper
Alloys and Alternate Fuels: Upgrade units cost reduced by 20%
Building/Small Wonder: Paper Mill: Library and University upkeep cheaper.

Middle Ages:
Lost Ancient Secrets: Gives access to ramdom ancient civ-specific techs. (1/2 of all)
Mechanics and Ballistics: cannons get +1 range, trebuchets, Arty and Rocket Arty get +1 bombard
Unit: Bombard: 7.1.1 BRF, lethal bombard.

Industrial:
Metric system: +1 gold from all import and export of resources
Geology: +1 shield from mining of hill and moutains
Building/Small Wonder: Museum: +20% science per city
Unit: Siege Artillery 10.1.3 BRF lethal sea bombard

Modern:
State Funded Rescearch: City w/ palace, forbidden palace and SecPolice HQ produce extra 20% science
Genetic Manipulation: Infantry units +1 HP, heal 2 HP in the field. Mech Inf +1 Movement
Unit: UAV: 0.1.20 ADM 4.0.1 BRF, +1 LoS Recon Drone, Detector Unit.
Building/Small Wonder: Com Sats: Reduces Corruption in all cites.



COMMERCIAL
Ancient:
Trade Routes: All cites on same continent of your civ are connected.
Trade Markets: luxuries traded and local produce +5 gold
Building/Small Wonder: Silk Road: imported luxuries produce +1 happy face
Unit: Road Gang: 0.0.2 Worker-like Build roads in one turn. cannot build anything else.

Middle Ages:
??
??
Building/Small Wonder: Mint: All gold squares produce +1 trade and shields

Industrial:
Resource Exchange: Strategic resources trade generates +1 trade for all resources traded.
Credit: Increases Wall Street intrest rate
Unit: Blockade Runner: 4.4.4 ADM 3.0.1 BRF Hidden Nationality, Invisible


Modern:
Petrochemical Industries: Oil squares produce +10 gold if outside city radius, +10 shields if inside.
Insurance: When Units and City improvements destroyed, 10% of the cost in gold is returned.







this is a work in progress... comments, suggestions and anything else is welcome...

--------------------------------
THANKS TO KHAN QUEST, VIZUROK, PUNDA THE PANDA, MANOFMIRACLES, CRISMON238

Last edited by superpelon; Jul 21, 2004 at 05:02 PM.
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Old Jul 19, 2004, 07:38 PM   #3
troytheface
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cool ideas yes, the scenarios kinda touch on this, but such a variety would really add to the fun of choosing a civ- if the game makers really want to to reach a broader audience they need to think along these lines- the game rules and mechanics would not be any more complicated..just more choices...Which would be my arguement for Civ4...more variety ...units, terrrain, tech..ect...and less amount (number).... make units or workers really expensive or something..nothing more boring than watching stacks and stacks of troops move around.
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Old Jul 19, 2004, 08:13 PM   #4
superpelon
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these extra techs really wouldnt add more in-game choices, just at the start of the game. 3-4 extra buildings, 2-3 extra units (some which would replace some other units) and a few extra skills IMO wouldnt complicate the game. A bit more diverse, and would make militaristic civs truly militaristic, cultural civs cultural, etc etc etc...

Quote:
Originally Posted by troytheface
make units or workers really expensive or something..nothing more boring than watching stacks and stacks of troops move around.
I AGREE. it sux. i hate watching AI fleets move one square, one ship at a time....
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Old Jul 19, 2004, 10:22 PM   #5
dh_epic
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I actually like the culturally sensitive tech trees from the scenarios... I'd like to see them incorporate that into the main game somehow. (You know which scenarios I'm talking about? In particular, the middle ages one.)
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Old Jul 19, 2004, 11:01 PM   #6
Vizurok
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Culture-specific and trait-specific techs are needed for the game! Absulutely good idea but i needs some work.
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Old Jul 19, 2004, 11:24 PM   #7
Vizurok
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Let me see: 2 techs for each age, 2 units, 1 drill and 1 Small wonder/building.

RELIGIOUS:
Religion makes people happy, 10% lux happiness. (dunno how to mod it )

Ancient:
Mithology: temples upkeep decreases
Religious Holidays: WLTKD in one of your cities, in next turn it moves to another city, next turn to a third city...

Medieval:
Unit: Fanatic 5.1.1 (expensive)
Religious Persecution: Foreign Citizen assimilate faster
Missions: Map tradign becomes available
Unit: Missionary 2.1.2, worker enslave
Small Wonder: Reformation, makes one people content
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Old Jul 20, 2004, 12:05 AM   #8
Oni
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I think it is a very good idea.. But here is my input

The units given should be civ specific. Not something general that all civs can get or even all civs of that type.

I like the idea of 2 techs per age and One unit. This would allow all civs to get a speacial unit each age (what some have wanted for a while).

Also the techs should be tradable but ofcourse the techs with units only come with the other features (small wonders/ city improvements/ etc). Furthermore, yoru advisor should always point out blatently when it is a specific tech for your civ. Not sure what he should say but something like how he discourages it and IF you are to trade it you should ask for alot. Just so for the early games (meaning someones first few games) as a certain civ they don't space it when trying to get someone to start a war.. or just give some Iron and gie away their big prize for the age.

OH and one last thing. There should be a time limit on receiving OTHER civ specific techs. So you can't get an ancient industrial tech in the industrial age if you aren't indusrial (you would have already gotten if you were though). It shoudl be like a one age limit or something.
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Old Jul 20, 2004, 07:03 PM   #9
Khan Quest
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Superpelon - Excellent elaboration.

Continue your your descriptions for Expantionist, Commercial, Agricultural and Scientific Traits.
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Old Jul 20, 2004, 08:45 PM   #10
Punda The Panda
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Superpelon's "Special Forces" unit might be a bit on the overpowered side.
I mean, I'm thinking it would be a Para/Amphib 12/10/1 unit, or an Infantry with Hidden Nationality. Giving it Para/Amphib, Hidden Nationality, Stealth, Invisibility, and Detector is going a bit far.
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Old Jul 20, 2004, 09:17 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Punda The Panda
Superpelon's "Special Forces" unit might be a bit on the overpowered side.
I mean, I'm thinking it would be a Para/Amphib 12/10/1 unit, or an Infantry with Hidden Nationality. Giving it Para/Amphib, Hidden Nationality, Stealth, Invisibility, and Detector is going a bit far.

Ill agree to lowering its stats a bit... 10.6.2 ADM and making it expensive.

10 Attack, good for taking out redlined units and infantry units.

6 Defense, SpecFor are not supposed to fight defensive battles, they run.

2 Move, Small units move much faster than bigger units. There are already several 2M Infantry units in the game (Jag Warriors, Impi, Samurai). I might even push it to 3M... move-attack/pillage-move...

As to the Para/Amphib... i think the whole point of have such a unit is that it should be able to do anything. HALO jumps, underwater insertions, etc, etc. The Hidden Nationality would be "if youre captured, we will deny your existance" thing. Also, who will know if a dozen guys planted bombs in a mine and then ran?? Or if the dozen guys hit a redlined tank unit?? Same deal with stealth. They should be able to CHOOSE to hit the weaker unit, or whatever. They are small-unit.

Detector is fine, ill take it off, but many time SpecFor dont even fight... the perform recon for the big guns and warplanes...

any comments on the rest of the units???? input is welcome....
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Old Jul 20, 2004, 09:47 PM   #12
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Yeah, but there has to be something that keeps people from filling the map with Special Forces units instead of tanks. They could be made incapable of conquering cities, they could be made weaker (but with all of the special abilities) or perhaps each city of over 12 pop. could only produce 1 Special Forces unit, and each city over 18, 2, and each city over 24 could produce 3.
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Old Jul 20, 2004, 10:23 PM   #13
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Hmmm, not bad. Here's a few others:

Agricultural could have workers learn to dowse or develop Artesian wells in order to gain a fresh water supply for irrigation. The workers would have to spend time examining each potential source tile (only certain terrains?) and there would be a fixed probability of success (5-10%?) Underground rivers/water sources would not gain commerce bonuses for tiles or allow Hoover Dam, etc. I agree with the terracing idea also.

Militaristic should have earlier aerial recon--does not scout uncharted territory but does accurately show non-hidden troop movements/placements in known lands/seas.

It is hard to come up with something for expansionist--maybe their workers can have a 50% road-building (ONLY) bonus on top of any other bonuses (i.e., industrious, government type)

Seafaring is also hard for me since they have such an advantage already on non-Pangaea maps. Perhaps make it so their ships can see further inland than non-seafaring or allow earlier production of an amphibious unit.

Religious could have proselytization to attempt to sway other cities to culturally flip--this would enhance standard espionage propaganda attempts and democracies would not be immune

Scientific could study geology and gain the ability to develop geothermal energy (or predict/prevent earthquakes and volcano eruptions if those disasters are implemented)

Commercial--I like the way usury appears before banking in DyP. Commercial civs in modern era could develop spam and use it as another propaganda-type weapon against opponents (democracies included). Insurance and speculation could get a little too complex although I can see where legalized gambling could be exclusively for commercial civs. Theoretically gambling dens would make lots of money but would also decrease worker productivity and even cause military slacking. Of course your opponents' units could come over and place a few bets and drain their treasury and be non-productive for their country.

A possible new wonder would be something like Mammoth Caves which could be found either after X number of successful dowsing attempts or after a scientific civ researches geology. Effect could be a "safe haven" for citizens on that continent during an attack so population isn't killed.

Last edited by ManOfMiracles; Jul 20, 2004 at 10:25 PM. Reason: added "cause" under commercial
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Old Jul 20, 2004, 11:06 PM   #14
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TO PUNDA THE PANDA:

About the special forces... a good idea would be to require a certain number of other units per specfor unit... you know, for every 10 infanty units (not tanks, planes, arty or ships) you can build one specfor unit... but make it expensive...

how does that sound??
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Old Jul 20, 2004, 11:52 PM   #15
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When it comes to the SPEC 4, what about having them only able to be built out of a special small wonder.... like Ranger School, or the appropriate civ counterpart. tha tway only 1 city per civ could build them, and that woudl decrease their #s in the game
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Old Jul 21, 2004, 02:31 AM   #16
Punda The Panda
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Indeedy. It would be nice to have a force capable of going around unseen, but too many of them would cause severe havoc and completely smoot up the game.. but then, they aren't *too* powerful.

I think the best way would make them very, very expensive. 2 or 3 tanks worth should cover it... because 3 tanks could *own* a Spec Ops guy.. if they could find him. A town could adequately defend itself against several spec-ops.. the only thing they'd be good for is ripping up improvements, scouting, and spying, especially if they're very expensive-- which is just what they should be for.

Religious holidays should be a WLTKD in every city, 1/10th of the time. That way, you can't exploit it with a small number of cities WLTKing all the time.

Your Combat Engineers have a higher attack than Infantry, and no defense. That's a bit strange- they would never attack, their purpose is to dig 'trenches' and whatnot- so they should be 4,8,1, with the ability to build all of those handy combat structures, + railroads.

The Scientific Special units could be longer ranged artillery units- Trigonometry to the rescue!

The Agricultural special unit could be the Doukhobor. A completely non-violent, happy little folk that pick up and move around and live a happy, pastoral lifestyle. A unit with no attack, no defense, Hidden Nationality and automatically initiate 'propaganda' against any cities within a 2-square radius.

Scientific should be the biggest in the Modern ages- their special unit could be the Genetically Superior Infantry, at 10,10,2, or the Fast Tank at 16,8,4.
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Old Jul 21, 2004, 07:56 AM   #17
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Maybe scientific could get communication satelites? Reduces corruption between cities on differant continents, by, obvisoly, giving them better communications, so reduces the distance from palace corruption modifier.
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Old Jul 21, 2004, 01:32 PM   #18
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I originally proposed this idea back in December but, this is a good place to bring it up again.
---------------------

A civilization’s characteristics should be able to possibly change over time, depending on how the game is played. This would be determined by the types of technology researched when given choice, and how city production is managed. If for example a militaristic civ, builds few barracks, few offensive units, etc, but builds a lot of temples, cathedrals, the Oracle, etc., researches theology before Chivalry, the civ should shift from militaristic to religious. Researching technologies exclusive to other characteristics (the type proposed in this thread) would have a very significant push toward that characteristic.

There should be bar graphs showing each of the 8 characteristics. If one other characteristic is half again more than a current characteristic the switch would take place.

I think the Mongols haven't exhibited expansionist character in centuries.

This would also salvage a game where a characteristic doesn’t come into play, such as a land-locked seafaring civ.
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Old Jul 21, 2004, 09:16 PM   #19
Oni
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khan Quest
I originally proposed this idea back in December but, this is a good place to bring it up again.
---------------------

A civilization’s characteristics should be able to possibly change over time, depending on how the game is played. This would be determined by the types of technology researched when given choice, and how city production is managed. If for example a militaristic civ, builds few barracks, few offensive units, etc, but builds a lot of temples, cathedrals, the Oracle, etc., researches theology before Chivalry, the civ should shift from militaristic to religious. Researching technologies exclusive to other characteristics (the type proposed in this thread) would have a very significant push toward that characteristic.

There should be bar graphs showing each of the 8 characteristics. If one other characteristic is half again more than a current characteristic the switch would take place.

I think the Mongols haven't exhibited expansionist character in centuries.

This would also salvage a game where a characteristic doesn’t come into play, such as a land-locked seafaring civ.
I think htat is a very good idea but it should be an option, Civiliation Attribute Shifting. Cuase I think sometimes I would not want it but others it would be nice... And In scenerios I think the creators would want to maintain specific attributes.

But then if there is attribute shifting how would you handle specific research?

You can only research your base attributes? Or maybe you can switch but you can not research past attributes If a switch takes place.
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Old Jul 22, 2004, 01:04 PM   #20
Khan Quest
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The attribute shifting would be your choice, depending on how you play the game. You would have to watch the graph and do things that would prevent an unwanted shift, or force a desired shift.
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