Acken
Deity
Well i think the problem has a lot to do with instant healing that the ai gets constantly. Im still a believer an undefended city should fall even by a couple units. A bit like civ4.
Acken Challenges - #1 Carthage Immortal (6)
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consentient
Domination!
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I think once the game has gotten going, I totally agree that people should build units and defend their cities. No successful empire should be able to get away with just a couple of archers. But since the Immortal AI on AckenMod has more units and is more ready to attack, it seems a bit much that you'd have to factor into every city placement that, if attacked, it's going to fall in a few turns to an early DoW, which are really common, even on v7.
I reloaded and played the same game and rush bought an archer in the expansion city, which I settled after getting 3 pop ruins, and so went Scout x3, Settler (having also hit a culture ruin and opened Tradition for the free monument, and gotten a pantheon ruin so no need for early Shrine).
The AI DoW'ed and this time had 3x Spearmen in addition to the units that attacked in the first playthrough.
Overall, I love the mod, but it's getting a little frustrating having to deal with this kind of thing on a lot of maps. On some maps - like the one from your Demigod LP, for example, there is enough space to expand and not get DoW'ed. But in many games it seems like I'm being artificially forced into either 2 city Honor or 50+ turns of building nothing but units to repel attack and then having sweet F.A. in the way of science or development after I make peace.
I reloaded and played the same game and rush bought an archer in the expansion city, which I settled after getting 3 pop ruins, and so went Scout x3, Settler (having also hit a culture ruin and opened Tradition for the free monument, and gotten a pantheon ruin so no need for early Shrine).
The AI DoW'ed and this time had 3x Spearmen in addition to the units that attacked in the first playthrough.
Overall, I love the mod, but it's getting a little frustrating having to deal with this kind of thing on a lot of maps. On some maps - like the one from your Demigod LP, for example, there is enough space to expand and not get DoW'ed. But in many games it seems like I'm being artificially forced into either 2 city Honor or 50+ turns of building nothing but units to repel attack and then having sweet F.A. in the way of science or development after I make peace.
bonniepbilly
Warlord
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T255 CV
I think I got lucky, even at the end there were still two civs sharing the other continent, so no big runaway. It was definitely an easier map than normal as I had lost my previous attempts at Acken immortal.
I took out the northern neighbor like most people, but I waited for elephants, which was probably not a good idea, since they suck both against spears and cities which was all I had to face.
I took a great prophet with the liberty finisher, not a great religion, but with mosques it was worth it, I think...
Science wise I beelined Archaeology, but I think I finished aesthetics too late (I mixed it with explo and ratio) and did not get many hidden sites (it's with the finisher right?).
I think I got lucky, even at the end there were still two civs sharing the other continent, so no big runaway. It was definitely an easier map than normal as I had lost my previous attempts at Acken immortal.
I took out the northern neighbor like most people, but I waited for elephants, which was probably not a good idea, since they suck both against spears and cities which was all I had to face.
I took a great prophet with the liberty finisher, not a great religion, but with mosques it was worth it, I think...
Science wise I beelined Archaeology, but I think I finished aesthetics too late (I mixed it with explo and ratio) and did not get many hidden sites (it's with the finisher right?).
This was a fun map; thanks for starting this challenge! Turn 273 Culture.
This is my 3rd game with this mod, and my first win. The other two showed me Demi-God is really hard (Rome, 7, wide, multi-DOW death after a promising start...), and that 4 cities Tradition doesn't work (Inca, 7, not enough production to hold my own in a late war, not enough science to launch after culture became impossible). After my Rome game and this one, I can say the early rush is viable on 6 and 7 even for generally peaceful player like me.
For this game I wasn't very decisive in when I was warring and when I was building, but still managed 3 successful offensive wars in between building wonders and keeping all reaches of my empire defended. The more generous bonus resources really make a difference in how much I can hammer out, and I loved all that early gold from the UA/UB.
I did my usual two scout open, with a wasted turn on a worker before a wasted shrine and a useful monument. I chose God of War, and I didn't found. I opened Tradition before going full Liberty. Then I mixed troops, work boats, QQ's, and a settler (after the bonus) before marching an army North to zerg Denmark. Everyone else was too far away, and I wanted to settle his area.
The early rush is really strong, and I took Copenhagen before I burned down the rest of his cities and resettled the area with my own. I'm not sure that was smart, but his city spots were terrible. My army had 2 archers, 4 spears, and 3 warriors that became swordsmen for the final push on his capital. I also had 5 QQs that work really well on weak early cities now that I can hit and run.
I opened Exploration and went for the hammers and happiness after Liberty, before going back for more happiness from Aristocracy. I didn't get to try out the new settling policy; I had 9 cities by the time I would have picked it. After I settled my lands, I had to do something about Morocco. They had forward settled my capital, and later started to run away from everyone in science in culture.
My game would have gone much smoother if I just stayed on the war path and crushed Morocco right after Denmark, but I paused for infrastructure and then had to plan two wars to take all of his territory. I may have snuck in some wonders too, like Pyramids, Oracle, and Colossus, and later Sistine. The first war came late and got called off after taking two cities and running into a wall of muskets and cannons.
Things got sideways when I picked Freedom even though Order made a lot more sense. Morocco went Order first, and had some serious pressure on me. But, well, live free or die hard. Plus, I was planning their demise. I invaded after spending some time on military techs, and melted him down with artillery and GWI. Boudicca decided to invade during the second Moroccan war, and things got a little dicey because I didn't have many troops in the area to defend with. I was able to hold, and eventually point my entire army at her. I decided that I really wanted to focus on culture victory still, and took peace with her after I smooshed her army. I probably should have taken a few cities, but I wanted to focus on economy. She invaded again after rebuilding her army, but I was on the path to victory at that point and just defended.
Victory came on the back of hotels, Internet, Freedom broadcast towers, full Aesthetics, victory in the IG, and two faith GMs to close it out. I also ended up needing Rationalism at the end to keep up, even though I tried to avoid it and took everything else first (not a strategy I intend to repeat.)
Random Observations:
- I enjoy slower science with seemingly more production (more bonus tiles) available.
- My cities were more specialized; only the national wonder requirements had me building a lot of stuff everywhere.
- I had a military focused city, and used my Civ 4 approach of always having a city producing military units. I used a big chunk of my gold on maintaining and upgrading my military.
- I had two gold focused cities, and planted my merchants rather than run them around.
- I used all of my high food cities to groom specialists of some sort.
- India got smoked by Rome, and Russia and Poland teamed up against Rome to put the rabid dog down. It seemed like rational behavior.
- Poland was really wide, Russia was really tall even with 11 cities. Both seemed to be stalemated against each other in their late war and in general.
- International competitions are trivial to win for the human, unless losing a war.
- 4-5 city empires, AI or human, can sprint ahead in the mid-game, but really struggle late game. I lost an army capable of a late vanilla BNW domination run in my Inca game, without really denting the endless Egyptian carpet of doom.
- Is it just me, or on the balance are air units less relatively powerful? I ended using my oil for tanks after a while.
- After reading some other stories, it seems more critical than ever to be super fast. Finding the right balance of military and progress will take some more experimentation.
- Liberty/wide feels very smooth in this mod, while Tradition/tall felt nerfed. The faith GE's are less important with more natural spawns coming around.
- I'm going to try Tradition again with more of a focus of buying settlers with the extra gold on the map, to see if that helps me expand enough while still doing other things with my capital early (army, wonders, etc). Focusing on military early seems to be the strongest play.
This is my 3rd game with this mod, and my first win. The other two showed me Demi-God is really hard (Rome, 7, wide, multi-DOW death after a promising start...), and that 4 cities Tradition doesn't work (Inca, 7, not enough production to hold my own in a late war, not enough science to launch after culture became impossible). After my Rome game and this one, I can say the early rush is viable on 6 and 7 even for generally peaceful player like me.
For this game I wasn't very decisive in when I was warring and when I was building, but still managed 3 successful offensive wars in between building wonders and keeping all reaches of my empire defended. The more generous bonus resources really make a difference in how much I can hammer out, and I loved all that early gold from the UA/UB.
I did my usual two scout open, with a wasted turn on a worker before a wasted shrine and a useful monument. I chose God of War, and I didn't found. I opened Tradition before going full Liberty. Then I mixed troops, work boats, QQ's, and a settler (after the bonus) before marching an army North to zerg Denmark. Everyone else was too far away, and I wanted to settle his area.
The early rush is really strong, and I took Copenhagen before I burned down the rest of his cities and resettled the area with my own. I'm not sure that was smart, but his city spots were terrible. My army had 2 archers, 4 spears, and 3 warriors that became swordsmen for the final push on his capital. I also had 5 QQs that work really well on weak early cities now that I can hit and run.
I opened Exploration and went for the hammers and happiness after Liberty, before going back for more happiness from Aristocracy. I didn't get to try out the new settling policy; I had 9 cities by the time I would have picked it. After I settled my lands, I had to do something about Morocco. They had forward settled my capital, and later started to run away from everyone in science in culture.
My game would have gone much smoother if I just stayed on the war path and crushed Morocco right after Denmark, but I paused for infrastructure and then had to plan two wars to take all of his territory. I may have snuck in some wonders too, like Pyramids, Oracle, and Colossus, and later Sistine. The first war came late and got called off after taking two cities and running into a wall of muskets and cannons.
Things got sideways when I picked Freedom even though Order made a lot more sense. Morocco went Order first, and had some serious pressure on me. But, well, live free or die hard. Plus, I was planning their demise. I invaded after spending some time on military techs, and melted him down with artillery and GWI. Boudicca decided to invade during the second Moroccan war, and things got a little dicey because I didn't have many troops in the area to defend with. I was able to hold, and eventually point my entire army at her. I decided that I really wanted to focus on culture victory still, and took peace with her after I smooshed her army. I probably should have taken a few cities, but I wanted to focus on economy. She invaded again after rebuilding her army, but I was on the path to victory at that point and just defended.
Victory came on the back of hotels, Internet, Freedom broadcast towers, full Aesthetics, victory in the IG, and two faith GMs to close it out. I also ended up needing Rationalism at the end to keep up, even though I tried to avoid it and took everything else first (not a strategy I intend to repeat.)
Random Observations:
- I enjoy slower science with seemingly more production (more bonus tiles) available.
- My cities were more specialized; only the national wonder requirements had me building a lot of stuff everywhere.
- I had a military focused city, and used my Civ 4 approach of always having a city producing military units. I used a big chunk of my gold on maintaining and upgrading my military.
- I had two gold focused cities, and planted my merchants rather than run them around.
- I used all of my high food cities to groom specialists of some sort.
- India got smoked by Rome, and Russia and Poland teamed up against Rome to put the rabid dog down. It seemed like rational behavior.
- Poland was really wide, Russia was really tall even with 11 cities. Both seemed to be stalemated against each other in their late war and in general.
- International competitions are trivial to win for the human, unless losing a war.
- 4-5 city empires, AI or human, can sprint ahead in the mid-game, but really struggle late game. I lost an army capable of a late vanilla BNW domination run in my Inca game, without really denting the endless Egyptian carpet of doom.
- Is it just me, or on the balance are air units less relatively powerful? I ended using my oil for tanks after a while.
- After reading some other stories, it seems more critical than ever to be super fast. Finding the right balance of military and progress will take some more experimentation.
- Liberty/wide feels very smooth in this mod, while Tradition/tall felt nerfed. The faith GE's are less important with more natural spawns coming around.
- I'm going to try Tradition again with more of a focus of buying settlers with the extra gold on the map, to see if that helps me expand enough while still doing other things with my capital early (army, wonders, etc). Focusing on military early seems to be the strongest play.
Acken
Deity
Tradition is okay but i dont advise turtling for long.
adcarrymaokai
Emperor
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I don't think there was that much more production, but having more hammers in the jungle and on ocean definitely helped. You really need a lot of production in this mod because you must build many things: units, all specialist buildings, all culture buildings (or else the AI's will actually have influence over you), and other stuff. You can't away with just markets and monuments anymore...
yung.carl.jung
Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious
@nmp
I had tested trad under the last version (v5 or experimental v6) and actually managed to win a DemiGod game without too much hassle. It was a 5 city Trad empire if you are curious.
Tall is still alive and well, it just doesn't work with mediocre terrain. You need mountains, you need tons of river tiles, you need animals, hills, a good pantheon..
I agree wide is stronger right now, but it is also much more dangerous.
@Consentient
Have you tried going for the Tradition policy that gives you early Walls? This is some of my standard play on Deity. Also I would never rushbuy an Archer, always a blocker unit. Having a Spearman sit there with the 2x fortification bonus on a hill drawing attacks left and right is more useful imo. Archers, Composites and Crossbows are support/offensive units now.
I had tested trad under the last version (v5 or experimental v6) and actually managed to win a DemiGod game without too much hassle. It was a 5 city Trad empire if you are curious.
Tall is still alive and well, it just doesn't work with mediocre terrain. You need mountains, you need tons of river tiles, you need animals, hills, a good pantheon..
I agree wide is stronger right now, but it is also much more dangerous.
@Consentient
Have you tried going for the Tradition policy that gives you early Walls? This is some of my standard play on Deity. Also I would never rushbuy an Archer, always a blocker unit. Having a Spearman sit there with the 2x fortification bonus on a hill drawing attacks left and right is more useful imo. Archers, Composites and Crossbows are support/offensive units now.
Acken
Deity
Tradition is also not bad at making settlers anyway with the better food to production conversion.
adcarrymaokai
Emperor
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I like what NQ mod did to mountains: you can build observatories in any city regardless of its locations, but a city with an observatory adds science yields to mountain tiles, so they are finally not useless. It also adds some game play where you have to decide between working a food, gold, production, or a big science tile which gives nothing else.
I would love to see some changes to desert. I know that DF is strong and that Petra can make a city op, but you have to not lose those to AI's, and Petra is only good with several desert hills nearby. In all other cases desert starts are meh. You can only work flood plains and hills. There are no forests, no horses, and not many other resources. A stone or marble in a desert are bad tiles until you have stone works, and only then they can compare to a mine, while stone on grassland has extra 2 food... hell, even tundra gives 1 food, and there is this pantheon dance of aurora which is very similar to DF. All in all, it would be nice to see something added to desert because in most cases it is just a flat wasteland you can't settle.
consentient
Domination!
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DF is stupid. I'd like to see it removed. The Cocoa one is OP as it stands, but is also quite rare, so maybe it balances out. I like the increased number of pantheons, and most of the new ones are really inventive. Those are good changes.
adcarrymaokai
Emperor
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I disagree that DF is stupid. It's the only thing that keeps desert starts from being crap, but even if you manage to get it, religion by itself isn't that useful for any victory condition. It's a nice boost, but it won't make or break the game.
consentient
Domination!
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All good starts need a river, and a desert start with a river is not really any worse than a plains start with a river. When you have plain desert tiles with no fresh water they are pretty bad, I agree, but the HB and AB map scripts that I use almost never give bare desert.
The problem is not desert, it's the vanilla map scripts. Every game I've had with DF has been really silly. At the very least it should be nerfed to not include tiles with resources.
consentient
Domination!
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For those who want to see my sloppy explorations of this mod, I've now uploaded all 11 parts of the video series I recorded. It ends with the capture of the 2nd capital, and I just couldn't be a.r.s.e.d with all the technical issues and graphical bugs so I didn't continue recording.
But I'll finish the game soon. Uncharacteristically I've left the Celts to last.
Also, I'd love another Acken challenge game soon. Maybe I can record at least part of that too! :S
But I'll finish the game soon. Uncharacteristically I've left the Celts to last.
Also, I'd love another Acken challenge game soon. Maybe I can record at least part of that too! :S
I don't find DF to be ridiculous simply because in any game in Acken's mod where I've had a desert start and immediately said "Sweet, I'm gonna get DF and just roll this thing," DF has gone on T5 or something.
adcarrymaokai
Emperor
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Not quite. A river start on plains or grassland is going to have some additional hammers: plains being plains and grassland having horses, stone. They also have forests to chop. This early production is crucial in the early game when you have to build settlers and other buildings. Early hammers are the most important.
Also, if DF only gave faith on blank desert tiles, it would be crap. 1 faith per tile? Why would you work that? A farm on a desert is 1 food 1 faith — that's also a crap tile. Because desert gives 0 yields as is, desert tiles will always be suboptimal to work even with resources because all other terrain aside from snow will also have these resources AND some other yields on top, like food or production.
consentient
Domination!
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You misunderstand me. I don't mean only blank tiles. I mean tiles with no resources. So farms and mines are OK, but not Iron, Sheep, Lux, etc.
Was going for a fast culture win second time around, just for fun. I spammed wonders like crazy, got every cultured city-state, every dig, won world fair and STILL the AIs had 20k culture by turn 200, even if they had been at war with each other all game.
Most of them went Aesthetics for some reason and I guess when you have 20 cities all with every culture building, you start to generate a lot of culture without any outside help.
Still a little bit sad. No way was I getting internet any time soon. Was heading towards maybe a turn 230ish CV. Boooo.
Most of them went Aesthetics for some reason and I guess when you have 20 cities all with every culture building, you start to generate a lot of culture without any outside help.
Still a little bit sad. No way was I getting internet any time soon. Was heading towards maybe a turn 230ish CV. Boooo.
I thought the biggest complaint about DF being OP was that it buffs Flood Plains -- when Flood Plains are already quite a decent tile? Would you like to see that removed or not?
consentient
Domination!
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I've been pretty clear, beetle. I'd like to see faith removed from resource tiles that just happen to be desert. Let's say there is a Desert Hill with Iron. It should produce faith for Earth Mother, but not for DF. The Flood Plains do not have a resource, so I don't have a problem with it.
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