Air & Water Pollution

[Hydromancerx]

Now that we have Flammability and Crime in place I would like to add some more types of properties. Specifically Air and Water Pollution. Like Crime or Flammability different buildings would increase or decrease the amount of air or water pollution.

As your pollution goes up there will begin to be "fake" buildings like the crime buildings have such as ...

- Pollution (Smog)
- Pollution (Acid Rain)
- Pollution (Polluted Water)

I would also like to tie in the terrains to it to where say at acid rain the surrounding forests or jungles could become barren trees.

I know there are global warming triggers in the game but it would be nice to make them more transparent in how they work. That way you could know if its getting bad and then try to reverse the effects.

Buildings that contribute would be things like factories, farms, etc. It would be nice to set improvements that could either increase or decrease the effects as well. There is lots of potential in this.

Please give me your feedback on how you think this could work.

 

[Il Principe]

Factories, fossile fuel power plants... they all should be upgradable. As in having a building that partially or completly cancels lets say a coal power plants pollution, only buildable if you already got a power plant in the city. It could come with a tech a bit after the one enabeling the original building, maybe even in several stages, with each more modern upgrade reducing pollution a bit more.
Some would not add aditional cost ( like filters for a coal power plant), some would ( like a chemical plant using less troublesome but less efficient ingridients).

Of course some classic health buildings should get a pollution reducing effect. Thinking about the water treatment plant here.

I would also like to see a change of the landfill with this: Remove the unhealthiness ( because the garbage is not lying in the streets anymore but out of the way), but make it a huge water pollution problem.

High water pollution should spread downstream ( if possible) , and also on coastal tiles. ( Might be interesting with "waste to the seas" civiv). If it becomes to high it could destroy fishing boats, and maybe even the resouces.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I was thinking about this the other day. Unhealthiness seems to be a catchall for a lot of issues, including these two. But it could be interesting to start going into some depth with it and dividing it up. Air and water pollution strike me as being more 'toxin' based while many other forms of unhealth seem to be 'disease' based. I wonder if that's the critical split to consider. I was thinking of this when I was considering the toxic effects of modern farming methods. I can see how it would be greatly beneficial to the system of the game to track pollutants on a tile by tile basis, reducing the effectiveness of farms and ocean tiles that rivers lead into over time.

Also... maybe we should label tiles with 'forested' values that indicate the density and health of the forests and jungles and have this system interact with these pollutant variables as well... hmmm... (and flammability with forest fires naturally coming through once in a while until man interrupts that process and increases their capacity for being consumed by fire entirely.)

 

[Koshling]

I was thinking about this the other day. Unhealthiness seems to be a catchall for a lot of issues, including these two. But it could be interesting to start going into some depth with it and dividing it up. Air and water pollution strike me as being more 'toxin' based while many other forms of unhealth seem to be 'disease' based. I wonder if that's the critical split to consider. I was thinking of this when I was considering the toxic effects of modern farming methods. I can see how it would be greatly beneficial to the system of the game to track pollutants on a tile by tile basis, reducing the effectiveness of farms and ocean tiles that rivers lead into over time.

Also... maybe we should label tiles with 'forested' values that indicate the density and health of the forests and jungles and have this system interact with these pollutant variables as well... hmmm... (and flammability with forest fires naturally coming through once in a while until man interrupts that process and increases their capacity for being consumed by fire entirely.)

Health feels somewhere close to the correct balance now in the latest C2C, so if you move some aspects OFF of unhealth onto new properties positive health will all need rebalancing again too. Of course, additional bad effects as ell as traditional unhealth won't affect that.

 

[Daedwartin]

I was thinking about this the other day. Unhealthiness seems to be a catchall for a lot of issues, including these two. But it could be interesting to start going into some depth with it and dividing it up. Air and water pollution strike me as being more 'toxin' based while many other forms of unhealth seem to be 'disease' based. I wonder if that's the critical split to consider. I was thinking of this when I was considering the toxic effects of modern farming methods. I can see how it would be greatly beneficial to the system of the game to track pollutants on a tile by tile basis, reducing the effectiveness of farms and ocean tiles that rivers lead into over time.

Also... maybe we should label tiles with 'forested' values that indicate the density and health of the forests and jungles and have this system interact with these pollutant variables as well... hmmm... (and flammability with forest fires naturally coming through once in a while until man interrupts that process and increases their capacity for being consumed by fire entirely.)

If we are to have pollution have a counting system like this, higher pollutions levels should cause a city to get a pollution penalty to health, showing that pollution can make it harder breath and water unusable. Also river Tiles that have been polluted lose fresh water til cleaned up.

Make promotions for the animals to show which pollution level they start getting weaken by, then heavily weakened, and cant even enter because its no longer survivable for them.

You might also make a map script that has every tile maxed out in pollution, for those who want a difficult and nerve racking game. At least the AI would have the same issues as you.

 

[AIAndy]

I am currently working on the possibility for a plot to have more than one feature. This will also allow auto adding/removing of a feature depending on a property (similar to what we have now with buildings).
With that certain levels of pollution could add a feature that reduces yields or adds feature unhealthiness.

 

[hotrodlincoln]

To be honest, this just sounds needlessly complicated. Every building/civic/technology that affects health would have to be completely redone. Balancing would need to be redone for many buildings. And for what, precisely? I don't really see this as being a massive game changing feature the way crime is (Which I love), so what really justifies all this effort? I think the hard work would be better applied in other directions.

Just my $0.02.

 

[Il Principe]

I think it a wonderfull idea, despite that hard work Sure other thins come first.. but one day.. and until then it is nice to have a concept already standing, shaped by discussion.

I like yure idea about animals being affected by it Daedwartin. maybe it could even be aranged to get less food and hammers from butchering "sick" aimals.

@AIAndy: sounds great. Might this be used for things like defensive structures and farms/mines etc on the same tile? Wiht slightly reducing yields of course.. i long for trench warfare

 

[AIAndy]

@AIAndy: sounds great. Might this be used for things like defensive structures and farms/mines etc on the same tile? Wiht slightly reducing yields of course.. i long for trench warfare

Farms/mines and forts are improvements, not features. But a possibility could be to allow building defensive features.

 

[Il Principe]

Ah sorry for that misunderstanding.

 

[ls612]

To be honest, this just sounds needlessly complicated. Every building/civic/technology that affects health would have to be completely redone. Balancing would need to be redone for many buildings. And for what, precisely? I don't really see this as being a massive game changing feature the way crime is (Which I love), so what really justifies all this effort? I think the hard work would be better applied in other directions.

Just my $0.02.

I actually agree with this statement quite a bit. Pollution and the cleanup of said pollution is already handled by Unhealthiness and Health on buildings in large part. Crime had no real parallel in BtS, and so was a prime candidate for the first test of the Extended Property System. If it was up to me, I would actually like to convert Electricity into a property, replacing the hammers produced by power plants. The inspiration for this comes from one of Hydro's old ideas for AND.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I am currently working on the possibility for a plot to have more than one feature. This will also allow auto adding/removing of a feature depending on a property (similar to what we have now with buildings).

This would certainly help with the problems I am currently having trying to "fix" the coast and ocean environments. Shipwrecks and so on.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Updates
- Added Air and Water Pollution properties.

Note they do not do anything yet except for accumulate pollution. They should work like the crime property works. No buildings add or reduce it yet and there are no free buildings produced yet. Note they are both set to 1 per turn per city size (crime has 3 per turn per city size).

EDIT: So the effects are applied to a majority of the buildings that should have +/- Air and/or Water Pollution.

Please let me know if I forgot any, if you think they are too strong or too weak or you think a building should not have a property. Note that the general rules I followed are ...

+ Air Pollution = Factory or Fire Burning building.
- Air Pollution = Park or Trees
+ Water Pollution = Produces a lot of Chemicals or is a Water Port
- Water Pollution = Water Cleaning buildings

Note that there are some that do not follow that but for the most part those were the types of buildings.

 

[Koshling]

EDIT: So the effects are applied to a majority of the buildings that should have +/- Air and/or Water Pollution.

Please let me know if I forgot any, if you think they are too strong or too weak or you think a building should not have a property. Note that the general rules I followed are ...

+ Air Pollution = Factory or Fire Burning building.
- Air Pollution = Park or Trees
+ Water Pollution = Produces a lot of Chemicals or is a Water Port
- Water Pollution = Water Cleaning buildings

Note that there are some that do not follow that but for the most part those were the types of buildings.

I presume you will do this with a dynamic property (like crime), not a static one (like flamability), so that it can diffuse to surrounding tiles (and thus be used to kill forests etc as you suggested in an earlier pot)?

 

[Sgtslick]

Sound really really interesting! Im excited by dynamic property system sound amazing. I think it should go beyond just killing forest (hence your etc i guess koshling ) It should create arid land and fallout and kill population/limit population, cause unhappiness.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I presume you will do this with a dynamic property (like crime), not a static one (like flamability), so that it can diffuse to surrounding tiles (and thus be used to kill forests etc as you suggested in an earlier pot)?

Yes it works exactly like crime. I have been PMing AIAndy and he has been helping me.

Right now they should all work by adding or subtracting air and water pollution. However the "free" buildings are not put in yet. I am working on those right now. I have 13 different air pollution buildings righting from Pollution (Light Smog) to Pollution (Blackened Skies).

I also plan to give terrain features like Forest and Jungle air cleaning properties and terrain features like swamps and bogs water cleaning properties.

I would also like to link the free buildings to events such as if you reach Pollution (Reef Bleaching) then if you have a Coral nearby it will disappear. Likewise if you have Pollution (Major Global Warming) the Global Warming event will trigger.

And at the very extreme if you get Pollution (Toxic Atmosphere) tiles will begin to generate Fallout around your city.

 

[Sgtslick]

sound cool

 

[Hydromancerx]

So the 13 types of pollution are implemented. I messed up earlier and had them trigger on the crime level so make sure your SVN is up to date to test. I am just entering the Ancient era and my Capital city has 129 Air Pollution and 109 Water Pollution. This means I only have Pollution (Light Smog), triggered at AP 100. This makes sense since its a big city (size 10) and has air pollution buildings such as the fire pit and tannery.

I will have to see how it goes as I add things like forges and smiths. And way down the road how bad it will get in the Industrial Revolution. Note my city is still in positive health so not much effect yet. Which means its not overpowered for at least the Prehistoric Era.

 

[ls612]

@Hydro: A few quick questions/ideas on the new Pollution properties.

1. How about Peaks to a large degree and hills to a much smaller degree limit the spread of Air Pollution. Mountains and high hills can form good barriers to airflow, this causing them to block the spread of pollutants in the air.

2. Would it be possible to have Water Pollution spread along rivers? I don't know if AIAndy implemented that capability to the Extended Property System, but if not it would be nice if that could be done.

3. How do you intend more specifically to do Global Warming? I know a little bit about the science, and know that it is influenced by pollution in the air, but also by many other things, including the solar output and the amount of land under cultivation. I think it would be bad to tie Warming/Cooling to only one factor, especially considering that eventually you will be able to to intentional terraforming.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Hydro: A few quick questions/ideas on the new Pollution properties.

1. How about Peaks to a large degree and hills to a much smaller degree limit the spread of Air Pollution. Mountains and high hills can form good barriers to airflow, this causing them to block the spread of pollutants in the air.

2. Would it be possible to have Water Pollution spread along rivers? I don't know if AIAndy implemented that capability to the Extended Property System, but if not it would be nice if that could be done.

3. How do you intend more specifically to do Global Warming? I know a little bit about the science, and know that it is influenced by pollution in the air, but also by many other things, including the solar output and the amount of land under cultivation. I think it would be bad to tie Warming/Cooling to only one factor, especially considering that eventually you will be able to to intentional terraforming.

1. That's a good point. However I am not sure how you can "trap" the spread of pollution.

2. Again I am not sure how to spread or stop pollution only generate or degenerate.

3. Well at the moment there are 3 levels of Global Warming pollution. However thy just act like crimes in that they are buildings. I would like to link them to events so they will actually effect your map. As on now they just are localized in the polluted city.