Ask a Mormon, Part 4

[downtown]

Now I'm interested in this magical underwear - never heard of that before.

Its no more magical than a yarmulke or any other kind of Religious clothing.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Exactly, yet he allows us (Or commands us) to become like him according to the LDS doctrine.

Yeah, so? I don't get why this doctrine bothers people so much. That particular verse was more concern over how it would happen.

Is he only in charge of this universe or all of them?

As I said, He hasn't told us any of this.

Wait, so Mormons can save people? I thought only God could. Different in the Mormon Church?

That's not what I meant - salvation is ultimately through Christ, but it is conditional on certain things - including ordinances (aka rituals) that only the LDS Church has the authority to perform.

That doesn't mean non-Mormons can't be saved though.

So basically, it was an identification mark for a specific person, and that was just the way it stayed?

Well, for a specific group. And that is the literal interpretation - the Book of Mormon doesn't allow for nearly as many possible interpretations as the Bible, but there is a distinct possibility that parts of it aren't 100% literal.

So God changed his mind?

No, as I said the doctrine never changed; He just wanted His church to act one way in one time period and a different way in another.

How does this contradict any other major Christian groups? Men will be punished only for his own sins! It just so happens we have a sin nature, which makes it impossible not to think sinful thoughts, but we will be punished for our own sin nature, not Adam's.

Some churches view original sin as a sin just like any of the sins we commit ourselves.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Yeah, so? I don't get why this doctrine bothers people so much.

Well, the fact that we can essentially become God, well, its obvious isn't it?

However...

That particular verse was more concern over how it would happen.

Fair enough. I'm sure I could debate this, but I don't really wanted to. A basic explanation is enough, and you got that.

As I said, He hasn't told us any of this.

Fair enough.

That's not what I meant - salvation is ultimately through Christ, but it is conditional on certain things - including ordinances (aka rituals) that only the LDS Church has the authority to perform.

That doesn't mean non-Mormons can't be saved though.

You just said: Salvation is conditional on ordinances that only the LDS Church can perform, but non-Mormons can be saved.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Does being a Mormon give you a short-cut?

Well, for a specific group. And that is the literal interpretation - the Book of Mormon doesn't allow for nearly as many possible interpretations as the Bible, but there is a distinct possibility that parts of it aren't 100% literal.

Makes sense. But you do, of course, believe that blacks are equal to whites right?

No, as I said the doctrine never changed; He just wanted His church to act one way in one time period and a different way in another.

Makes sense. So, what was supposed to happen to those who were already in polygamous marriages?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Well, the fact that we can essentially become God, well, its obvious isn't it?

Not to me it's not obvious (and apparently not to the Eastern Orthodox either).

You just said: Salvation is conditional on ordinances that only the LDS Church can perform, but non-Mormons can be saved.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Does being a Mormon give you a short-cut?

Well, it gives you a better idea of what you have to do.

Makes sense. But you do, of course, believe that blacks are equal to whites right?

We do . . . and we did even when we had a racially discriminatory policy regarding blacks.

Makes sense. So, what was supposed to happen to those who were already in polygamous marriages?

They had to end them.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Not to me it's not obvious (and apparently not to the Eastern Orthodox either).

I didn't mean why or if you were wrong, but why people would have an issue with that doctrine?

Then again, if you ever became God, you'd have to make CFC world

Well, it gives you a better idea of what you have to do.

Which is?

We do . . . and we did even when we had a racially discriminatory policy regarding blacks.

Lolwat?

I believe you do now, but how could you have when you had a discriminatory policy? Also, was the discriminatory policy ordained by God at that time or not?

They had to end them.

Yet the Bible is against divorce, therefore if it was God's will for them to enter such marriages it would be against his will for them to end them

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I didn't mean why or if you were wrong, but why people would have an issue with that doctrine?

Right, which I still don't get.

Then again, if you ever became God, you'd have to make CFC world

I intend to have both the X and Y axis wrap around so it is donut shaped. Also, fjords on the equators.

Which is?

Well, among other things, receiving the necessary ordinances from those who have authority to perform them.

Lolwat?

I believe you do now, but how could you have when you had a discriminatory policy? Also, was the discriminatory policy ordained by God at that time or not?

Well, the fact that black men of African descent couldn't receive the priesthood before 1978 is something that not even Mormons fully understand; there is no underlying doctrinal explanation as there is with polygamy.

Yet the Bible is against divorce, therefore if it was God's will for them to enter such marriages it would be against his will for them to end them

Only if you assume that what the Bible said was universally applicable.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Right, which I still don't get.

Because God created us, if we can become God he is not soverign.

Also, why haven't there been any malevolent gods in other universes try to invade ours? Or is that impossible.

I intend to have both the X and Y axis wrap around so it is donut shaped. Also, fjords on the equators.

How difficult is it supposed to be to actually become God?

Well, among other things, receiving the necessary ordinances from those who have authority to perform them.

So, if you don't get them, are you doomed to hell?

Also, why would a non-Mormon get the ordinances?

Well, the fact that black men of African descent couldn't receive the priesthood before 1978 is something that not even Mormons fully understand; there is no underlying doctrinal explanation as there is with polygamy.

Well, I would tell you the reason was because they were racist before 1978. Would you deny that?

Only if you assume that what the Bible said was universally applicable.

Not sure what you mean here.

 

[Bestbank Tiger]

We do . . . and we did even when we had a racially discriminatory policy regarding blacks.

Yep. I don't remember the chapter and verse but the Book of Mormon says that God makes no distinction between male and female, black or white, bond or free. (Paraphrasing there, don't remember the exact quote either).

 

[Plotinus]

Not to me it's not obvious (and apparently not to the Eastern Orthodox either).

Just to clarify: the Orthodox view is that human beings will ultimately become united to God in everything except essence. That seems to suggest that we will have the divine properties but not the divine substance, so we won't be essentially God, but we will be effectively divine. That is the teaching of St Maximus the Confessor at any rate.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

We have become associated with it because of Proposition 8 in CA, although that is gay marriage and not homosexuality specifically; we think homosexual acts are sinful, but usually don't really make a big issue of it as such.

The reason I refereed to homosexuality in general is that a German article claimed Utah had the most hostile environment for homosexuality in the US (for instance substantiated by the relative highest suicide rates of homosexuals).
I am not interested in flaming against the Mormon faith, just what you or other Mormons on this board think about that / how you deal with this.

 

[Evil_Abe]

Do you take the Bible as the infalible word of God? Do you interpret it literally? I am a Baptist and we do so I'm just curious.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Well, I would tell you the reason was because they were racist before 1978. Would you deny that?

I might - as I said, it is not clear why we had the policy in the first place. It could be because the leaders of the church who implemented it were racist - this is presumably what any non-Mormon would think. I am willing to consider there was another reason, although I don't think I would if I didn't have the views I do on Church leadership.

Not sure what you mean here.

I mean, that that verse may not have been referring to all forms of divorce for all reasons in all eras and cultures.

We certainly see divorce as, at best, a necessary evil. There are circumstances where it is better than the alternatives though.

I promise to get to your other questions regarding the afterlife, but that will take a huge post.

Just to clarify: the Orthodox view is that human beings will ultimately become united to God in everything except essence. That seems to suggest that we will have the divine properties but not the divine substance, so we won't be essentially God, but we will be effectively divine. That is the teaching of St Maximus the Confessor at any rate.

Yeah, I did know that they don't actually think the same thing about it that we do. And I suppose there is as much of a difference between what we think and they think, as between what they think and Western Christianity thinks. Still, the idea that we can become godlike (for whatever definition of "godlike" you want to use) isn't unique to Mormonism.

The reason I refereed to homosexuality in general is that a German article claimed Utah had the most hostile environment for homosexuality in the US (for instance substantiated by the relative highest suicide rates of homosexuals).
I am not interested in flaming against the Mormon faith, just what you or other Mormons on this board think about that / how you deal with this.

I don't know if that statistic about Utah is true (it could very well be); I do know that Salt Lake City has a gay community that is about what you'd expect from a city that size. As far as how individual members of the church view gay people, I can't speak for all of them (and none of them who currently live in Utah) but almost every Mormon I have known has had the same basic opinion that just because a person is doing something that's a sin, is no reason not to be friends with them. And certainly if a family member comes out and leaves the church, it isn't okay to ostracize or disown them. (I am sure it happens sometimes though.)

Do you take the Bible as the infalible word of God? Do you interpret it literally? I am a Baptist and we do so I'm just curious.

We believe the Bible to be the word of God, but it isn't infallible, and we don't take all of it literally. We also don't hold it to be the only source of doctrine or a source of authority in its own right. (Those three traits I classify as Inerrantism, Literalism, and Fundamentalism*).

*Using the word "fundamentalist" not in its modern pejorative sense but with the original definition that people used to describe themselves.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Thanks for remembering my question of the afterlife. I should also point out I'd like to know how it is determined who goes to which.

I might - as I said, it is not clear why we had the policy in the first place. It could be because the leaders of the church who implemented it were racist - this is presumably what any non-Mormon would think. I am willing to consider there was another reason, although I don't think I would if I didn't have the views I do on Church leadership.

Well, Protestant Christians owned slaves in the 1800's, the church condoned it, and they were racist.

I would assume it was the same with the Mormon Church, and I kinda think you have to admit it to keep a sense of legitimacy. If you can admit "We were racist, but we got past it," then I don't see the problem. IIRC its not endorsed in the Book of Mormon, it was just a church decision.

 

[downtown]

I don't think there is any doubt that Brigham Young was a flaming rasist.

 

[warpus]

Hey, can somebody answer my question about Zion?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Question about this.

Where is this Zion going to be built? Are there plans? Or is this a "it's going to happen at some point in the future but we're not going to start hiring architects quite yet" type of thing?

We don't have dates and times yet (and only vaguely places). And I think that the Church figures that it has its own architects who will be willing to work for the sake of building the Kingdom.

(In other words: it's going to happen, we know that, we don't know a lot else. Admittedly, I actually don't know as much about LDS eschatology as I think most members do . . . )

 

[warpus]

Ahh, so it isn't a plan per se, but rather a thing that is going to happen at some point in the future, put into action by some yet unknown thing?

What is the purpose of this city?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

It won't be put into action by "some unknown thing" but by God, so . . .

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Okay, so this is for Dom, the post I promised him.

Okay, so you die. Then one of two things happens. You go to either Paradise or spirit prison. Which isn't quite as bad as it sounds, of course. But while there, you will be given the opportunity to hear the Gospel (yeah, we have missionaries in the afterlife . . . ). To move on it is necessary to have received the ordinances of salvation, including baptism and confirmation. Which can be done on your behalf. Those who reject this will have to suffer for their sins, but only for a time.

After that is judgment, in which everyone* will go to one of three kingdoms or degrees of glory: the Celestial (symbolized by the sun), Terrestrial (the moon) and Telestial (the stars)**. Also, everyone (regardless of where they go) will be resurrected, with a perfect body (not prone to sickness/injury/general suboptimality like we have now).

The Telestial is the lowest, where the unrepentant and truly wicked will spend eternity. The Terrestrial is for those who were basically good people but who never accepted the Gospel or the Atonement of Christ.*** The Celestial Kingdom is the highest; some (but not all) of those who are there will begin the process of becoming like God.****

Most of this is laid out in Doctrine and Covenants Section 76, revealed to Joseph Smith in 1832. As verse 89 explains, the Telestial Kingdom - where the most wicked and unrepentant people will spend eternity - is so much more glorious than anything we experience on earth that it is beyond our understanding.

*Except for those who commit one specific sin, denying the Holy Ghost, which the overwhelming majority of people who ever lived will not even be able to commit.
**I realize that astronomically speaking that's not how they should be ranked in order of brightness, but from our perspective it looks like that so it works for the purposes of symbolism.
***At some point in their life, which includes after their death. Clearly most people don't become Mormon while alive, through no fault of their own, so that couldn't reasonably be held against them.
****In a more specific sense; since the divine is not so different from the human we will all be a little like God.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Okay, so this is for Dom, the post I promised him.

Thanks.

Okay, so you die. Then one of two things happens. You go to either Paradise or spirit prison. Which isn't quite as bad as it sounds, of course. But while there, you will be given the opportunity to hear the Gospel (yeah, we have missionaries in the afterlife . . . ). To move on it is necessary to have received the ordinances of salvation, including baptism and confirmation. Which can be done on your behalf. Those who reject this will have to suffer for their sins, but only for a time.

Interesting. While I don't agree that there are missionaries after death, I don't see a real problem with it. In any case, how bad is spirit prison supposed to be?
After that is judgment, in which everyone* will go to one of three kingdoms or degrees of glory: the Celestial (symbolized by the sun), Terrestrial (the moon) and Telestial (the stars)**.

The Telestial is the lowest, where the unrepentant and truly wicked will spend eternity. The Terrestrial is for those who were basically good people but who never accepted the Gospel or the Atonement of Christ.*** The Celestial Kingdom is the highest; some (but not all) of those who are there will begin the process of becoming like God.****

How many will undertake this process?

Most of this is laid out in Doctrine and Covenants Section 76, revealed to Joseph Smith in 1832. As verse 89 explains, the Telestial Kingdom - where the most wicked and unrepentant people will spend eternity - is so much more glorious than anything we experience on earth that it is beyond our understanding.

How glorious is the Celestial Kingdom then?

*Except for those who commit one specific sin, denying the Holy Ghost, which the overwhelming majority of people who ever lived will not even be able to commit.

What happens to them? Hell?

And, what does this sin entail exactly?