Barbarians & Animals

[BlazeRedSXT]

Maybe it is just me, as so many here seem to like the Raging barbarians(despite the current poll results), but I find that the default settings are almost too high... or maybe I am just exceptionally unlucky.
I tend to play a more technology based game, so tend to use fewer military units overall.. that makes defending against the barbs very difficult... I suppose I could alter my outlook there, but everytime I do that, all of the sudden I have Barb axemen and lizardmen going after my weaker units and taking them out in droves because I changed my focus and somehow got behind barbs in Tech!

Good news... Sto's mapscripts(sadly few upgraded for 1.61) allows independant Animal and Barb generation %s...

Cheers!

 

[chocmushroom]

BlazeRedSXT I think it all depends on what level you are playing the game on. I find that on Emperor level, the Barbs on normal can still do me a lot of damage. I think some of the people who play with RB, do so on a lower level game setting.

 

[vorshlumpf]

Yes, some probably do. I think it comes down to what you look for in a game. My girlfriend doesn't like raging barbarians at all - she just wants to be left alone to expand, improve, and slowly conquer. My preferred game would be one where I'm teetering on the brink the whole way through (if I make it through). Unfortunately, I haven't come close to that yet. Either I survive the initial onslaught and then dominate, or I die or fall hopelessly behind and stay that way.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Yeah, playing the whole game on the brink of destruction (or at least a large part of it) is fun. Of course, not everyone agrees with me, but that's what raging barbs are for! FfH when you aren't fighting anyone, even the barbs, just isn't as fun. So many units and such that you want to use in combat, but no chance to do so...

 

[Sarisin]

I am finishing up one of the most fun games I have had. It was with 0.13 - I played as Bannor on a huge highlands map at Noble with raging barbs. As someone mentioned, I just cannot get higher than the Noble level with raging barbs. I used to play Prince with no problems, but it seems tougher now.

Anyway, here are some points from the game I thought interesting (to me anyway, and I think anyone who likes playing with raging barbs):

1. Once again the mounted barb units, the worg riders, chariots, and Royal Guards came a bit early. The chariots in only yr. 250 or thereabouts. With their power (6) and movement pts (3) they are tough. The out of place Royal Guards are even tougher and they get outrageous bonuses too that make them tough to kill.

2. I once asked if there were Tier 4 barb units - I had not seen any, until this game. Then, I saw plenty. First the Inquisitors, another bizarre barb unit. Then, heavy crossbowmen, Lizard Druids, Lizard Beastmasters, Paladins (again strange for a barb), and Eidolons.

I would say in yr. 1500 and thereafter, I had to deal with 90% of the barbs (and, yes, they were raging) of the Tier 3 (Lizard Ranger, Assassins, Orc Macemen, Royal Guards) and the Tier 4 as mentioned.

3. It's hard to understand how the barbs get those high number of promotions. We get them from civics, wonders, and, of course, combat. Yet, here come barbs with Combat 5 and so forth. Not easy to beat a loaded Eidolon unit in mid-game.

4. I guess the Barbarians are not considered a nation with a national limit on Tier 4 units. I saw a stack of 5 Inquisitors. At one time there was always three Lizard Beastmasters, three Lizard Druids, and three Paladins. There were two other civs left and I have to think some of these units were attacking them too - although my attempts to get there were not successful as I got attacked like crazy. When I ran into barb cities with Eidolons and Lizard Druids defending, I counted 8 barb Lizard Druids and about as many Eidolons.

5. The barbs apparently don't need conjurers or other summoning units to produce units like Chaos Marauders, Nightmares, or Skeletons, as I was attacked by these frequently - no summoning units to be found at that stage of the game. I did see some barb conjurers later though.

6. The orc archer units looked like a combination of spearmen and little archers thrown together on the same tile.

7. I once again had Orthus attack me (5 of 6 games played). I killed him this time with a hunter with 76 XP and I was shocked to not receive a single XP!

8. In addition to getting targeted by Orthus early on, the Red Dragon set up camp just outside the border of my sole city. It was a long time before I could kill him and I was suprised how easy it was - lost a blooded werewolf, then the Baron dispatched him.

I have to say as far as the barbs go, these Tier 4 barbs are a hoot to do battle with. Again, some should be replaced if possible, but it sure is a challenge now the way it is.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Conceptually, some more civilized "barbarian" units aren't too unreasonable. Barbarians also represent "minor tribes" small civs that aren't important enough to get their names in the history books. The inquisitors could be from a small cult, the royal guards could be the body guards for some warlord, etc.

I wouldn't be too surprised to see chariots early rememebr all they need is a seige worrkshop to build.

 

[Sarisin]

Conceptually, some more civilized "barbarian" units aren't too unreasonable. Barbarians also represent "minor tribes" small civs that aren't important enough to get their names in the history books. The inquisitors could be from a small cult, the royal guards could be the body guards for some warlord, etc.

I wouldn't be too surprised to see chariots early rememebr all they need is a seige worrkshop to build.

Funny, I don't recall any chariots being driven by barbarians. Jacked from the Romans perhaps?

Actually, you are correct, but I challenge you to try and get the necessary tech and seige workshop while fighting raging barbs. Without the barbs pounding you, maybe you could expand to a few cities and get your research going. However, it has been my experience that it is not wise to expand too much as the barbs will take out your improvements, if not your cities. Also, you need plenty of units to deal with the barbs. This drives up maintenance which causes you to decrease research.

I think if you play without the raging barbs it is much easier to prepare yourself for the chariots, but with the constant attacks it is very difficult to keep up with the power/movement points of the barbs as it is now. You really need to be lucky in getting a tech like hunting or horseback riding (with horses) from a goodie hut. Then, you can build units with enough movement points and maybe some power/promotions to deal with the chariots.

Honestly, I think historically most barbarians (but not all - remember the Mongols) were melee type units maybe with some archers. But, again, this mod is about fantasy, not realism - hence those fun guys, the Lizard Men.

 

[Kael]

Conceptually, some more civilized "barbarian" units aren't too unreasonable. Barbarians also represent "minor tribes" small civs that aren't important enough to get their names in the history books. The inquisitors could be from a small cult, the royal guards could be the body guards for some warlord, etc.

I wouldn't be too surprised to see chariots early rememebr all they need is a seige worrkshop to build.

Barbarians create untis 2 ways:

1. Through city production just as players do. This is the less common way.
2. Spawned. The barbarian gets to cheat for units. In this case it ignores building and religious requirements. The only thing that matters is the tech requirements.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Funny, I don't recall any chariots being driven by barbarians. Jacked from the Romans perhaps?

Actually, you are correct, but I challenge you to try and get the necessary tech and seige workshop while fighting raging barbs.

I didn't mean *I* could get chariots early with raging barbs... I meant I understand why they can!

 

[Sarisin]

Barbarians create untis 2 ways:

1. Through city production just as players do. This is the less common way.
2. Spawned. The barbarian gets to cheat for units. In this case it ignores building and religious requirements. The only thing that matters is the tech requirements.

Kael, I want you to know I am not complaining. I think you and the team did a great job substituting the Lizard folk in all their forms and the orc barbs as well. I am just more or less suggesting that maybe some of the more bizarre barb units could be replaced by those similar to the ones you have now. Lizard Druids and Beastmasters make sense, but then along comes a Paladin or Inquisitor.

Can you tell me what determines which barb units come when? It is easy to figure out with the orc spearmen, goblins (around yr 100 in marathon) and lizard men (around yr 200 in marathon). But, next except for an occasional worg rider, then you get the chariots. They seem a little out of place in terms of power/movement points. I would think the orc axemen/archers would come first.

Also, any comment on summoned barb units appearing without any conjurers, etc.?

 

[Sarisin]

Ooh! That sounds like fun =)

I love raging barbarians - how they make you scrape and claw your way forward in the game.

I know the AI for certain aspects of the game are being tweaked. I'm looking forward to a smarter Orthus. It would be cool if he always brought troops with him (I've only seen him alone so far). Perhaps he could also 'recruit' any barb units that come within sight of him as he rampages.



Civ III would have the occasional barbarian rampage, where any barb camps would automatically be populated with a huge stack of horsemen. My assumption is that Civ IV doesn't do this - does anyone know for sure? It would be a nice random event to have some barb city spawn a bunch of units bent on rampage (the idea being some ambitious warlord has just gotten to the top of the heap and decides his destiny is at hand).

- Niilo

I'm a little surprised by your comments here. Maybe it has something to do with your game setting.

I usually play only at Noble, but when Orthus comes a-knockin' at my door he always has a ton of spearmen and goblins with him. Stacks of double digit barbs are not uncommon. In fact, it is easy for me to kill Orthus, but the damage the rest do to my improvements is bad.

Same thing for during the game as I often see stacks of barb. The largest I ever saw was 30 or so.

After reading Kael's explanation of how barb units 'spawn' I have to wonder how you can get a stack of 30???

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Would you consider giving the barbs and the Clan of Embers different UUs? Seems that there's a big enough difference between bestial humanoids just rampaging and bestial humanoids under a strong leadership. Maybe the barbs wouldn't get chariots and/or paladins, but the CoE would. Anyway, I think that some of the replacement units you could put in for those high level units could be pretty awesome (lesser dragons, titans?).

Also, what degree of control do you have over the game's barbarian spawning mechanics? Making some changes to how they spawn and when they spawn (like requiring the barbs to get to a later tech before they build axemen, earlier to get archers, that sort of thing) could be beneficial.

 

[Kael]

Would you consider giving the barbs and the Clan of Embers different UUs? Seems that there's a big enough difference between bestial humanoids just rampaging and bestial humanoids under a strong leadership. Maybe the barbs wouldn't get chariots and/or paladins, but the CoE would. Anyway, I think that some of the replacement units you could put in for those high level units could be pretty awesome (lesser dragons, titans?).

Yeah, I blocked a few for the barbarians in 0.14. Paladins, Royal Guard, etc won't spawn for them anymore.

I like your idea of making monsters out of the t4 barbarian units. But I don't know ff we use them as buildable units, or have them appear in other ways (as powerful opponents of hostile lands like hell).

Also, what degree of control do you have over the game's barbarian spawning mechanics? Making some changes to how they spawn and when they spawn (like requiring the barbs to get to a later tech before they build axemen, earlier to get archers, that sort of thing) could be beneficial.

Changing the spawn mechanism is an SDK change. I prefer to leave the SDK as close to vanilla as possible so we need a significant reason to do it. We have a few changes in on the barbarian spawn mechanism already so if we decide its important it can be done.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Well, some powerful monsters could exist on both Hell and Earth (though probably more commonly on Hell), though I know little enough of your plans there to not be sure whether or not it would work. I think it would be awesome to see White Dragons on the tundra, green ones in the jungles, and some Blue Dragons in my beloved deserts.

Heck, dragons might deserve their own thread. I think I'll compile some ideas, and if you don't object, maybe I'll start one up. Of course, if you'd rather save the speculation until dragons have been further implemented, I'll understand.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Yeah, I blocked a few for the barbarians in 0.14. Paladins, Royal Guard, etc won't spawn for them anymore.

I like your idea of making monsters out of the t4 barbarian units. But I don't know ff we use them as buildable units, or have them appear in other ways (as powerful opponents of hostile lands like hell).

If very powerful barbs make it in, maybe the exp cap should be removed for them.

Also, version 14 still has royal guards for barbs, I guess they're still buildable if not spawnable.

 

[chocmushroom]

If very powerful barbs make it in, maybe the exp cap should be removed for them.

Also, version 14 still has royal guards for barbs, I guess they're still buildable if not spawnable.

I agree, i've just had my dwarves attacked by two Royal Guard from a very little town (How can a size 2 town, on a ice-sheet, with 1 crab & 3 woods be able to produce two royal guards in 5 turns)

 

[Sarisin]

I finally finished the 0.13 game with the raging barbs and the first time I saw all the Tier 4 barbs. For those of you who may be tempted, but have not yet tried the raging barb setting, here is a partial list of the dead - most are barbs, but I also had war with Jonas, Charadon, Flaurus, and Beer Bawlin:

Lizardmen Assassin - 583
Orc Axemen - 409
Lizard Beastmaster - 121
Chaos Marauder - 160
Chariot - 572
Copper Golem - 302
Crossbowmen - 513
Djinn - 178
Lizardmen Druid - 136
Worg Rider - 539
Lizardmen - 1,107
Inquisitor - 210
Kikijab - 315
Lawbringer - 780
Orc Macemen - 794
Mercenary - 546
Nightmare - 797
Paladin - 181
Lizardmen Ranger - 578
Royal Guard - 557
Goblin - 995
Orc Spearmen - 1,290


A few comments:

1. All this killing got me only a rating of Sir Robin. I won a conquest victory by sneaking around all the raging barbs to finally eliminate the last two AI civs, but it was tough as the barbs would target me as they scooted around on their bogus roads.

2. I only included in the list 3-4 figures of those killed. There were many more.

3. What is a Kikijab? I don't think I ever saw one as I didn't see many of the other summoned units I killed. Again, with the barbs many summoned units appeared without the benefit of a conjurer, etc.

4. During a game like this, I kinda feel like Robert Duvall in 'Apocalypse Now.'

Onward to 0.14...

 

[Nikis-Knight]

I tried a game with no other civs in it (just me against the barbarians) and it took me nearly 800 years to get my second city, and 1000 years just to secure a valley area for myself (blocked off entrances into decent sized area so i could finally make improvements).

Raging barbs on a standard highlands map on deity as a time victory is a good challenge lol.. I never beat it though as it was a marathon game and I had no idea how much longer it would be, but I had the barbarians finally under control (won a personal victory).

I tried these similar settings based on your advice, large map w/ fewer civs than normal, Highland, raging, Agressive AI, though monarch and normal speed. Thanks to my protected start, two civs were wiped out before I saw a barbarian. I've sort of teamed up with Amurites and Kuriotes to keep them as a buffer, infact Cardith Lorda was down to a settlement, and I gave him back 3 cities and some werewolves to hold them with. (and then he breaks our defensive pact, because one of the cities was runic holy city and he switched religions ). Anyway, We've still only explored about a third of it! Long story short, totally different way to play, everyone should give it a shot.

 

[Sarisin]

I had a funny one happen today in my first 0.14 game...

I noticed one after another AI civ being destroyed. I suspected it might be the work of Orthus who appeared rather early in the marathon setting I thought.

Anyway, the inevitable wave of goblins and spearmen that usually accompanies him appears, but no Orthus.

I am battling stacks of the goblins and spearmen, when to my surprise I find...a goblin carry Orthus' Axe

That was sure the easiest time I ever won Orthus' Axe.

Also, as I mentioned before, so far the appearance of the raging barbs makes sense with the goblins/spearmen, Lizarmen, Axemen, Worg Rider progression. So far (yr. 800) no Royal Guards!

 

[vorshlumpf]

I'm a little surprised by your comments here. Maybe it has something to do with your game setting.

I usually play only at Noble, but when Orthus comes a-knockin' at my door he always has a ton of spearmen and goblins with him. Stacks of double digit barbs are not uncommon. In fact, it is easy for me to kill Orthus, but the damage the rest do to my improvements is bad.

Same thing for during the game as I often see stacks of barb. The largest I ever saw was 30 or so.

After reading Kael's explanation of how barb units 'spawn' I have to wonder how you can get a stack of 30???

In my most recent game, I moved up to Monarch difficulty from Prince. Everything else is the same: Aggressive AI, Raging Barbs (of course!), Huge map (that is the biggest, right?) - Fantasy Realm style, Marathon, and 18 civs. I must add, though, that I take off the EXP cap for barbs so I'll typically get a few units above 100 EXP before my first civ-vs-civ war.

Anyway, with this latest game I was a bit dissappointed with the Barbs. Sure, it was pretty dicey at the beginning, but I just made sure my (small) perimeter was manned at all times and I rarely had a problem. I'm in the mid-game now, and the barbs have started to step it up a bit with axemen and chariots, but it's still not a problem for most of us (just for the weaker civs that are still around).

In all my games, I have yet to see anything stronger than a barb chariot so I'm surprised with the constant reports. This games looks like it'll last a bit longer, though, because of the difficulty level - so perhaps I'll see them later.

As for Orthus, in all of my games I've only met the lad personally on one occassion - and he was all alone. Every other time he's killed himself attacking some AI city. Oh, wait - I think that one meeting was in the original FfH, so I guess I shouldn't count that.

Stacks of up to 30? That would be a sight! The most I've seen was 4 on one tile . . .

- Niilo

P.S.: I can't wait until Acheron gets his wings. In my current game his city is surrounded by various civ's units, almost as if he's on display and they're selling popcorn.