Blue Monkey's Bharata Varsha Bazaar

One caution: Since those empires took and retook territory from each other, and the maps usually show "@ greatest extent" there will be some overlap between lists. I'll try to list the "core" areas first.

I've been looking at maps also and I know what you mean. Some cities show up under several civs; it seems many of them on the fringes were passed back and forth several times.

Here's a list for India to get you started:

Pratihara
Chola
Pala
Rashtrakutra
Cheras
 
New question - what technologies and innovations were available in the subcontinent in the 9th century CE?
 
Pala Empire (Ancient Bengal) city list

mentioned as capitals:
Bhangala (or Vangala) :king:
Gaur :king:
Laknauti :king:

Karmanta
Devaparvata
Rampal
Chittagong
Vikramapura
Suvarnagrama
Dacca
Srihatta
Nidhanpur
Sravasti
Pundravardhana
Somapura
Kotivarsa
Gauda
Rajmahal
Maldah
Bhagapur
Mugdaguri
Kajangal
Ramabati
Murshidabad
Karnasuvarna
Nabadip
Vardhaman
Triveni
Tamlipti
Susunia
Chandraketugarh
Pandu Rajar
Chandradip
Navaya
 
I've always had a soft spot for Bengal. They seemed to last for so long, against some of the biggest empires... I may add these to my epic game...
 
I've always had a soft spot for Bengal. They seemed to last for so long, against some of the biggest empires... I may add these to my epic game...
In the 1960s, even after a devastating flood, they managed to gain independence from Pakistan.
 
Would Bebro's Tiger Warrior work for India even though its intended for China?
Can you give me a link so I can check it out?

By the way, I just received a book stuffed with illustrations of Indian weapons and armor called "By My Sword & Shield: Traditional Weapons of the Indian Warrior". Having it handy will help me identify more units that can be adapted to India; plus there's plenty of ideas in there for anyone who wants to make new Indian units.
 
Yeah, the rajas had captive tigers (not pets; just ask Siegfreid and Roy). But I don't recall a tiger cult or tiger warriors. There is a school of Vajramukti (an Indian martial art that influenced the development of Shaolin Kung Fu) known as "Striking Tiger", but the name refers to an unarmed fighting style.

The sword is good, and the shield is the right shape. The clothing is definitely not anything I've seen in images of Indian warriors. Still, I think a place could be found for him in an Indian mod. Thanks for the tip.
 
Glad I could help. Have any flashy concept art anywhere? I'd like to make a unit from this region again. Anything I can do to help.

PS. I've updated the Dawn of Tommorow Thread. Comments from you are always appreciated, ideas on new units etc.
 
Glad I could help. Have any flashy concept art anywhere? I'd like to make a unit from this region again. Anything I can do to help.

The most critical need is for a dhoti prop which would be an essential part of any ancient/medieval Indian flavor units.
The basic item of clothing for classical Indian males is the Dhoti. If we had a dhoti clothing/prop for our paper doll we would be well on our way to being able to create many suitable units of all types.
Thumbnail Gallery of Dhotis
I've got lots of images of what the archers, swordsmen, etc. look like. Let me know if there's a particular type of unit you'd like to try and I'll post some images.

At some point over the next few months I'm going to purchase a Poser elephant. There are several types of elephant units I'd like to work on. One way the dhoti prop would come in handy is to dress the mahout directing an elephant worker unit.

As to a wishlist for uniquely Indian units:

I'd really like to see a Ratha (an Indian style chariot).
Here is ...an extensive gallery of images for the Kshatrya heavy chariot:
@Quinzy: Yes, this, like a few others of the chariot units around, could be adapted. The Kshatriya chariot is heavy. Here's the look. As you can see, it's often depicted as a four-wheeled "cart", although sometimes two-wheeled. It may have two or four horses. The chariot itself is called a ratha. the warrior, normally using a bow, is the Kshatrya, and there is also a charioteer. One notable feature is the chattra (parasol) which marks the high rank of the Kshastrya. Along with the pennant, it could mark the civ color of the unit. I would not really identify a chariot as "Indian" without a chattra of some kind.

Lot's of concept art for Indian units is at the Blue Lotus mod for R:TW. In Gaias' thread about conversions I posted:
This is a public posting of my PM conversation with Gaias:

Quoting myself: ...Personally, I would love to see any or all from the Indian Army, the Demon Army, or The Neutral/Mercenary Army (especially Hanuman).

...Here is my wish list (prioritized from high to low):

1) Hanuman (from the rebel/mercenary army)
2) Arjuna Chariots (Indian)
3) Chakra Thrower (Indian)
4) 4-Arm Demon (Demon)
5) Snow Monkey infantry (Demon)
6) Royal Elephant (Indian)
7) Golden Archer (Indian)
8) War Elephant (Indian)
9) Kappa Elephant (Demon)
10) Tribal Fanatic (Indian)

A unit using a Katar would be a uniquely Indian unit.

A Sadhu is a really unusual unit I'd like to see. I'd like to have things like his fidget/fortify be him meditating in the lotus position and levitating. I'd like to use this unit as a teleporter or telepad.

If we could convince Flamand to finish your ancient airplane request it would make an excellent Vimana.


I know some of these units would be very complex to model and animate. If you picked even a relatively simple one that seemed fun to do, I'd happily help you out with more concept art and collaborative commentary along the way.
 
Would Bebro's Tiger Warrior work for India even though its intended for China?

There is a school of Vajramukti (an Indian martial art that influenced the development of Shaolin Kung Fu) known as "Striking Tiger", but the name refers to an unarmed fighting style. ...The clothing is definitely not anything I've seen in images of Indian warriors. Still, I think a place could be found for him in an Indian mod.
just had a thought about how to use him, but it involves an inside joke. Back in the Battlefield Asia days I suggested a UU for Sri Lanka to represent the long history, going back to ancient days, of jungle fighters on the island. With a little change in skin tone he could represent the indigenous Dravidian warriors. By the way, the modern insurgents there call themselves "Tamil Tigers". :p
 
New question - what technologies and innovations were available in the subcontinent in the 9th century CE?
Well, I've compiled a list of specific advances in Education, Science (astronomy, maths, physics, chemistry, geology, and geography), and Technics (medicine, metallurgy, textiles, time-keeping, politics & civil administration, economics & trade, city planning & engineering, construction techniques, art, music, and architecture).

Do you want a plain list of accomplishments and areas of general knowledge (some of which are advanced enough compared to what was available in the west at the time that they may provoke argument) or the detailed list including names of scientists and engineers, texts with dates of publications, specific widely accepted theories, etc.? The list is about 3 pages at 10 pt. type, I'd have to put it in spoilers below a summary of each topic.
:coffee:
 
I'll need a plain list of general knowledge for now; that way, I can start figuring out the tech tree for South Asia. Also need rough estimates of dates to determine what comes first. A more detailed list can come later. :)
 
I'll need a plain list of general knowledge for now; that way, I can start figuring out the tech tree for South Asia. Also need rough estimates of dates to determine what comes first. A more detailed list can come later. :)
OK. Give me about a day to abstract the simple list from the detailed and put it in chronological order.
 
New question - what technologies and innovations were available in the subcontinent in the 9th century CE?
Summary of Techs in South Asia (India) in 9th-10th CE
Yes, this is the short list. I haven't included military units, since those were pretty consistent with previous periods. Many items mentioned are from earlier centuries; it's important to remember that there was greater continuity in South Asian social structures (including science &technology) than in Europe (no "Dark Ages").

These are the books that were my main references in preparing this list:
Ancient India R C Majumdar
Daily Life in Ancient India: from 200 BC to 700 AD Jeannine Auboyer
Lost Discoveries Dick Teresi
Science in Ancient India Melissa Stewart
Struggle for Empire (vol. 5 History & Culture of the Indian People) R C Majumdar

General Education
  • Education was held in very high regard. Also, there was greater emphasis on theoretical knowledge than practical application, except in medicine.
  • Most Mathas, a type of structured, hierarchical (as opposed to the ashram model) temple and monastic complex, featured a “Hall of Study” where secular as well as religious subjects were taught.
  • Classical India had several major universities that could rival, and surpass in some subjects, anything European universities of the era could offer, notably Nalanda University (active from the 5th through the end of the 12th CE).
  • several encyclopedic works (compendia of knowledge) were available.
  • Lexicography of Sanskrit & Prakrits well developed.
Science

Astronomy“nakshatravya” = knowledge of stars = astronomy
  • theory of gravity (700 BCE) and “gurutvakarshan” = gravitation (400 CE)
  • 4th cent. BCE prediction of celestial phenomena
By 4th-5th cent. CE general acceptance of:
  • spherical earth
  • concept of a spherical universe
  • stars were understood to be suns
  • accurate calculation of the year (within 10% of modern) and celestial phenomena
  • earth-sun distance used as a basic unit for calculation of planetary distances (with elliptical, heliocentric orbits)
  • knowledge that planets shine because of reflected sunlight not internal sources
  • that lunar eclipses are caused by Earth’s shadow.
Physics
  • atomic theory before 6th BCE; “anu”=atom “skandha”=molecule.
  • 500 BCE concept of “svabhava”=inherent properties of material objects based on combination of elements, including concepts similar to both quarks and molecules, that light & heat are same thing (electromagnetic spectrum) + wave-particle duality of light. elements cannot be destroyed. that atomic weight varies between elements. boiling/melting point known to vary between elements, opposite electric charges and spin quality of particles.
  • 150 BCE - 100 CE - inherent properties of elements regardless of "pudgala"=forms. theoretical understanding of momentum, space, time. ionic bonding. molecular structure maintained by energy wave transfers.
Mathematics
  • 9th - 6th BCE “bijaganitam” (“second math”=algebra) as applied to geometric formulas; “sulbasutras” (rules of the cord=geometry) calculation of squares of triangles (Pythagorean theorem), formulas for spheric volumes, calculation of square and cube roots, infinite set of rational numbers, square root of 2 to 5 decimal places, pi & golden ratio
  • 500 BCE names for powers of 10 up to 17
  • 3rd BCE zero symbol,
  • 4th CE secular context for math, accounting incl. profit/loss & interest, simultaneous equations, quadratic equations, arithmetical & geometric progressions, notation for neg. division as numerator over denominator & unknown quantity (as we use x)
  • 450 CE application of periodic theorems to planar & spherical trigonometry
  • 5th CE multiplication & division in modern technique, negative numbers, algebra, calculus
  • 600 CE addition & subtraction with zero & neg. numbers, square root of 0=0 0x0=0
  • 876 CE gwalior numerals
  • 1400 CE derivation of infinite series for pi, power series for trig functions
Geology
  • 5th CE age of earth estimated at 4.3 billion
  • 1300 CE system of mineral classification incl. precious stones, metals, and alloys.
Chemistry
  • 10 th CE discovery of lighter than air gases.


Technics


Medicine
  • Ayurveda=science of long life
  • herbal remedies designed to work gradually to avoid harsh side effects. Treating both symptoms & underlying causes.
  • 300 BCE skeletal anatomy. digestion, genetics, treatment of mental illness, effect of climate, diet, other environmental factors on health.
  • 6th BCE techniques of corpse dissection, amputation, orthopedic surgery, cataract surgery, plastic surgery, oral surgery, wound treatment,
  • 11th CE metallic medicinal preparations, use of opium, importance of pulse in diagnosis, veterinary texts for horses and elephants published
Metallurgy
  • 5th BCE foundries produce superior (to Europe & Middle East) iron & steel in larger quantities per batch than elsewhere
  • 600 CE “wootz” = high quality steel exported for damascus swords.
Timekeeping
5th BCE water clock for calendrical calculations of length of day

Textiles
  • 500 CE spinning wheel.
  • paper making techniques imported from China.
  • Textiles and dyeing superior to European.
  • World’s leading exporter of textiles through middle ages and into 17th cent.
  • Leather cushions and sleeping mats, intricately worked and embroidered with gold & silver wire
Politics & Civics
  • 3rd BCE use of organized espionage & secret services, systematic taxation, bureaucratic services.
  • 8th CE democratic election of rulers
City Planning
  • Harappan era sewers.
  • Highway planning (incl. rest stops) by Asoka.
Construction techniques
  • standardized weights systems
  • use of rulers with 6.7 mm graduations
  • flood walls of kiln-fired brick
  • iron pillars in temple construction
  • iron suspension bridges
  • concept of negative space as key to architectural design.
  • Use of dams for diversion of irrigation 10th - 12th CE
  • bamboo grown as building material
Manufacturing & Trade
  • factories with division of labor.
  • “srenis” = powerful guilds that maintained their own militias.
  • “samuhas” - trade guilds
  • “Nanadesis” a trading corporation to SE Asia (ur-East India Co?)
  • shipbuilding superior to european.
  • shampoo
  • windmills imported from iran.
  • industrial chemistry in 12th CE
Trade in: camphor, saffron (Kashmir), indigo, myrobolans (extracts of dried fruits used in medicine, dyeing & tanning), pearls, rose-water, copper, zinc, lead, silk-thread, sugar, corals, perfumes, pepper, teak, areca-nuts (in addition to items listed in previous posts).
 
Many thanks. This shall be a GREAT help in figuring out the South Asian part of the Tech Tree. :goodjob:
 
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